Reportage is always fragmentary, so it’s tough to tell what all really went on during the last two days of custody hearings in San Angelo. But these snippets can be interpreted as a coordinated good-cop, bad-cop routine by Judge Walther and CPS in which Walther is rehabilitated to appear a bit less voracious and inhumane than she’s seemed in the past:
A judge today ordered that the now-14-year-old bride of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs be placed in state custody, saying she feared the girl’s mother was unable to protect her.
“Allowing the child to remain (in her mother’s custody) would be contrary to the interests of the girl,” said state District Judge Barbara Walther.
Walther, however, denied a request by Child Protective Services for custody of the girl’s 11-year-old brother and ordered that he remain with his mother. . .
Good cop. Girl has to go, but boy gets to stay with Mom, though neither can see their father, Frederick “Merrill” Jessop.
“It’s a very difficult decision for a judge to make,” said Marleigh Meisner, an attorney for CPS. “We certainly respect her decision.” . .
Yeah, right. I’m sure Meisner does “respect” Judge Walther who, as part of the O’Neill-inspired love fest between Texas courts and CPS, is Meisner’s partner and collaborator.
At this week’s custody hearing, Barbara Jessop, 55, repeatedly invoked her right against self-incrimination, refusing to answer all but a few of the more than 30 questions fired at her by CPS attorneys.
“I stand on the Fifth (Amendment),” she said when asked such questions as the names of her children and visitors to her San Antonio home, whether it would be in the best interests of a 12-year-old girl to be married to an older man and whether she had ever beaten her children when they were young.
I’d like to see the transcript of this portion of the hearing. I have a feeling something is missing. If this is really all there is, I wonder what strategy Barbara Jessop is pursuing by refusing to answer such simple questions. It doesn’t seem to help her case and surely plays into the good-cop, bad-cop routine:
Walther today cited that, pointedly asking Rios, “When parents can’t affirmatively state that they will take steps to protect their children, what recourse does the court have?”
Enter the bad cop:
Valerie Trevino, a San Angelo-based caseworker assigned to represent the children’s interests, said she had tried to make three scheduled visits to San Antonio and that Barbara Jessop had skipped each appointment without explanation.
Trevino urged the judge to remove the children from their mother’s care.
But the “seasoned jurist,” carefully weighed the facts and decided to deny Trevino’s “urge” to remove those kids. Ergo, “Judge Walther good, CPS bad.”
There’s more. In negotiation parlance, this issue (removing these kids) appears to have been for CPS a “low-cost concession,” something CPS were willing or even anxious to give up in order to make it appear that they made a concession (thereby paving the way for more demands) when they really haven’t given up anything.
More at Hou Chron.
{ 88 comments… read them below or add one }
Ron in Houston 08.19.08 at 9:18 pm
You’ve got to be kidding right? I can’t believe where you claim to be such high minded intellectuals as to claim “By proving contraries, truth is made manifest,” that you can’t see the difference in the risk to a male child in a patriarchal culture versus a non-patriarchal culture.
Kurt Schulzke 08.19.08 at 9:52 pm
What does the difference in risk have to do with the apparent moves of the players in the negotiation game?
Jeny 08.19.08 at 9:54 pm
Ron…do you consider the Catholic culture “patriarchal”?
If so, would you say that male children in Catholic families face similar risks as children in non-patriarchal cultures or in patriarchal cultures?
Thomas Forguson 08.19.08 at 10:05 pm
Kurt there is an ongoing criminal investigation. She could not rosk answering any questions.
Ron in Houston 08.19.08 at 10:10 pm
Jeny
Honestly - Catholic culture is “semi-patriarchal.” In the Catholic church only men can be leaders of the church. You reject female priests and view the Anglican acceptance of them as a barrier to ecclesiastical reunification.
However, the Catholic culture is no where near as patriarchal as many evangelical Christian denominations where the Biblical passage of “wives submit to your husbands” is viewed far differently.
You are certainly not viewed in Catholic culture as “belonging” to the Prophet. Your role is also viewed much differently than to bear children for the “Priesthood.”
I honestly don’t think you really have any idea of the theology of FLDS. I’d suggest you do some serious study on the topic.
Ron in Houston 08.19.08 at 10:13 pm
Kurt the “moves” of the players only created the starting point of the hearing. The result showed that the risks to a male child in a patriarchal culture are different than a female child.
Pliggy 08.19.08 at 10:29 pm
Ron,
You speak as if you know any more than Jeny does! Ha ha ha ha!
I would bet her interpretation is much better than yours.
I suggest you do a little more research mr expert. Step into my office and open your ears.
Singular and Krakaur are tabloids and “Escape” and Stolen Intelligence are nickel novels.
Start with FLDS Truth website (many mother testimonies), then Teachings of the Prophet Joseph, then the Book of Mormon is a very good story (sorry, no talking animals) Then the D&C and finally The Journals of Discourses should round you out pretty good.
Ron in Houston 08.19.08 at 10:47 pm
pliggy
I’m an Episcopalian. The theology of Catholics and Episcopalians are very similar. Sure we disagree on some things; however, I know enough about Catholic theology to speak with some authority.
Let’s compare this with your knowledge/background. You believe that all dark skinned people are specially cursed. You believe despite loads of scientific evidence that American Indians migrated from middle eastern tribes in 600 BCE.
You don’t believe in evolution. You don’t believe in genetic theory. You believe that Noah took every species on earth onto an ark.
You don’t believe that dinosaurs existed. You’ve told me that you don’t believe that melanin is the cause of peoples skins being darker.
If Jenn is a “good” Catholic she’d reject your Book of Mormon and all your other holy books. She’ll follow the teachings of her church. She’ll follow her catechism and reject the evils of your megalomaniacal prophet Warren Jeffs.
In other words, you’d rather hold onto your ignorant superstitious beliefs than use your intellect and reason to apply modern scientific principles.
Kurt Schulzke 08.19.08 at 10:58 pm
Ron –
Negotiation is a dynamic phenomenon, not a set piece. It’s not more like rugby or soccer than football. My post was written from my perspective as a negotiation professor, coach and practitioner.
While the facts on which it is based are fragmentary, the analysis — assuming good facts — is sound. I was careful not to characterize that analysis as the only interpretation. Just one interpretation. You’re welcome to offer an alternate view.
K
jj 08.20.08 at 12:09 am
Am I to take it that this is what the young lady wants? And it is not being FORCED upon her?
Sage 08.20.08 at 1:30 am
Per Ron to Jeny: “You believe despite loads of scientific evidence that American Indians migrated from middle eastern tribes in 600 BCE”. The “lack of evidence” notion is a old canard. Jeny is on solid ground in that belief (and a few others you dispute, too.)
A now-vast array of evidence — historic, linguistic, cultural, botanical — links some (never said all) of the blood of American Indians to the Near East. In the Book of Mormon, that includes rafts of Hebraisms, names, literary forms, historic parallels, cultural practices, to say nothing of the discovery of ancient Nahom/Nehem, the place of Ishmael’s burial in the interior of the South Arabian peninsula — right where it has to be in the Book of Mormon narrative. And much more.
Similar discoveries in Central America, loads of them. Those who would demolish FLDS or LDS faith in the Book of Mormon need to look for an easier target. Even the Popul Vuh, a redaction of Quiche’ Maya traditions, dating in written form to about 1550, gives confirming evidence: the story of Creation, the Tower, the Flood — and more. FLDS and LDS are on solid ground in believing there is a strong tie between the ancient Americans and the Near or Middle East.
The Spaniards were astonished by what the Aztecs and Mayans knew before their arrival, so much so that they theorized that one of the apostles had made his way to the Americas.
Just in terms of blood types, the Bering Strait theory is (forgive me) on thin ice. Mongolians are primarily type B; American Indians are, with few exceptions, type O — a recessive gene.
Those who would dispute Book of Mormon claims would be better off looking for an easier target.
Pliggy 08.20.08 at 1:42 am
Ron,
I find it quite fantastic that you can tell me what I believe because you are Episcipalian.
Stop with the “YOU BELIEVE” and READ:
I believe that God made black people and their culture FOR A GOOD REASON, which requires us to not mix together and that their tribal culture is not to be emulated. As far as association, I do it every day and do not look up to, or down on black individuals.
There is DNA evidence that links Native Americans to Asia, but that proves nothing. There is DNA evidence that many Jews are not related to each other, you go tell them to stop believing it.
I do belive in evolution that has been proven in Science, but I don’t believe in Darwinism, there is a difference between “Origin of Species” and progress through change.
I do believe that dinosaurs existed, there were some very impressive dinosaur footprint fossils found by Willie Jessop’s company several years ago near Short Creek, and they are on display in St George UT.
Of course melanin is what makes peoples skin darker, I never said it didn’t. But there are many more distictions between races than that.
I didn’t realize you or Jeny needed to convert in order to stop believing lies, and I didn’t realize this was a comparison of “one upmanship” of who’s religion was better. Jeny DOES believe in her OWN religion more than you do YOUR OWN, or it wouldn’t hurt your feelings so bad for us to believe DIFFERENT. Can’t I be wrong in peace? You are wrong to me, and I don’t care, go ahead and be wrong all you want!
And your insult of the critter telling her in essence to “shut up and live your religion how Singular taught it to me” is stupid. Really.
Here, read these:
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/q-and-with-flds-mothers.html
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-mother.html
Pliggy 08.20.08 at 1:45 am
I apologize Kurt for coming to your blog. I know that you haven’t seen all of the exchanges on other blogs between Ron and I, or you wouldn’t censor mine.
Kurt Schulzke 08.20.08 at 6:16 am
Pliggy –
You are making unwarranted assumptions. The system automatically puts certain messages — including those with more than one URL — in moderation. Haven’t checked the moderation list, but I suspect that’s what’s happened to one of your messages.
K
Kurt Schulzke 08.20.08 at 6:21 am
Ron –
By the way, last night I should have mentioned that your notion that girls are at higher risk than boys in “patriarchal” societies fully supports my analysis if (as is probably the case) CPS and Walther believe as you do. If they do, they would view the boy as an expendable, truly low-cost concession. Letting the boy stay with mom looks “reasonable” to people who don’t look more closely at the situation.
Bob 08.20.08 at 8:23 am
“Hello CPS, my name is Sarah, and like, I’m a 16-year-old girl and the Jews have me captive in a Synagogue in Texas where they mutilate the genitals of young boys and then an old man puts his mouth on the boy’s peepee. Please send that tank thingee to rescue all Jewish boys before they are mutilated and abused.”
See how things can by twisted? The above is all factual, but a spin has been put on it to make the point that the same thing is being done to the FLDS. It can be done with ANY religion. The haters and bigots are selectively prosecuting and persecuting the FLDS while letting other religions do things that can be spun if a far worse light.
Here’s what Wikipedia says about what “Sarah” reported above:
“Traditionally, in ultra-orthodox Judaism, the mohel would draw blood from the childs penis using his mouth to clean the wound after circumcision, a practice known as metzitzah b’peh (”suction by mouth”), Though for hygiene and social reasons a small pump is used today by most mohel.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel
Bob 08.20.08 at 8:29 am
“CPS? Sarah, again. Say, I escaped from the Jews, but now the Catholics have me in the basement of a Church. Old men who wear dresses who are grooming alter boys to be their sex slaves have me locked up here. Did you know that an integral part of Catholic beliefs is canibalism? They are brainwashing children to believe that when they receive communion that they’re drinking blood and eating flesh. Please send your snipers to come and rescue all Catholic children and put them in state care.”
Once again, here’s an illustration of how things can be twisted. And, also once again, this can be done with any religion by small minded haters and bigots.
I believe there is a conspiracy against the FLDS and that it has its roots with some government officials in Utah.
kbp 08.20.08 at 8:41 am
Pliggy,
I’ve learned (when I remember!) to only put 1 link per comment and 1 comment per minute.
All go up immediately if you follow those rules, it’s not something Kurt does to any in a selective manner.
Bob 08.20.08 at 8:51 am
Those who doltishly say the law is the law and the FLDS folks have broken the law, have a naive view of reality.
Virtually all laws relating to things such as marriage, morality, etc. are really religious laws with secular clothes.
So, in effect, you have people of one religious view forcing those with a different religious view to adhere to religious laws of the former even when they conflict with the latter.
That’s not the way it’s supposed to work in this country, and with most religions, the state takes a don’t ask, don’t tell attitude unless the religion in question is clearly beyond the pale in what it believes and practices (such as a religion that might believe in killing people).
Voudoun (commonly known as VooDoo) is now taking root in the U.S. and the state pretty much ignores the slaughter of various animals and other practices of that religion. Why? Probably, because its practioners are favored minorities.
The FLDS, on the other hand, are not favored minorities, so they are put under a microscope and persecuted for so much as jay walking.
kbp 08.20.08 at 8:52 am
If you read all the affidavits of the four suits the state was seeking custody in, and the agreement included in one of them, you should see how silly the ruling is.
Instead of stating straight out that it is a “belief” problem, the state tries to tie that in to a SAFETY concern of contact with some that acted out those “beliefs”, but are not charged for the specific conduct identified as a SAFETY problem.
(Dr. Barlow is charged for failure to report child abuse)
txmom77 08.20.08 at 9:00 am
Did anyone read what the CPS lawyer said?
“We need to take these children out of that environment and put them in a safer environment where they are safe from indoctrination,” said CPS attorney Jeff Schmidt.
First that pictures makes my stomach turn into a million knots, it’s gross and wrong and sick. But what Jeff Schmidt states is that we want the kids away from the religion. That isn’t right.
IN THE KNOW 08.20.08 at 9:01 am
Simply put, Barbara Jessop choked on the stand. She refused to admit information CPS already had (such as the names of her children) and other simple questions that could not have led to a criminal complaint. She was under a lot of pressure, and she simply did not handle it well.
The case against her was weak. The most recent alleged act of “abuse” offered against her occurred in August of 2006. What sealed her fate was taking the 5th on a couple of key questions she could have answered and the testimony that CPS and CASA were unable to contact her at her address.
There was not one shred of evidence that any of the spiritual unions that she and/or Merrill Jessop were alleged to have participated in resulted in sex between an adult and a child. There was also no evidence that simply engaging in a purported marriage was harmful to the physical or emotional well-being of the child. The oldest male child was not removed because he was seventeen and the youngest male child was not removed because CPS put forward insufficient evidence that he was at risk.
Walther was more moderated in her temperament compared to the 14-day hearing. I don’t agree with the good cop/bad cop analysis, however. She was merely exercising a more judicial temperament and the evidence was weak.
Finally, Valerie Trevino is CASA, not CPS.
kbp 08.20.08 at 9:41 am
Barbara testifying is like proving your innocence.
I do not think anything that could have happened in that courtroom would have altered what walther was going to and did do.
Thomas Forguson 08.20.08 at 10:00 am
Ron, It was this concern about women that contributed to the ill-conceived raid in April. They actually thought they were rescuing those women and children. Some people forget that there is an ongoing criminal investigation and that must have had an effect on her testimony. I agree with KBP.It doesnt matter what was said or done. That girl was going into foster care. Valerie Trevino casa not cps? that’s a distinction without a difference
Bob 08.20.08 at 10:20 am
Barbara Jessop did the right thing. If you answer some seemingly innocent questions and then try to take the 5th on others, the court may rule that you have already waived your privelege.
marttie 08.20.08 at 10:55 am
I believe that the verdict was set the moment she walked in and anything she said WOULD have been used against Merril and Warren Jeffs. How is the girl in danger? Her Supposed husband is miles away in Prision. They haven’t proven that her father is abusive. This is all nonsense to try to prove that CPS was right.
In the end all CPS can prove is that they have many wives. WOW like we didn’t know that. Like we needed to spent millions and abuse young children for life to find that out.Keep digging CPS at least you will have somewhere to rest when this is over.
rikitikitavi1 08.20.08 at 6:17 pm
“We need to take these children out of that environment and put them in a safer environment where they are safe from indoctrination”
So, no parent is now allowed to take their child to church & teach them their beliefs, or does that only apply to certain religions? Of course, now the child is subject to indoctrination by CPS, which will put her in foster care with mainstream children & have her dress & act like Britney Spears.
Thomas Forguson 08.20.08 at 8:20 pm
Calling all you legal experts. I know that in Texas the civil and criminal courts are seperate. However, the civil appeals court said that Judge Walther was wrong in calling the XYZ one large household. How would that effect the criminal cases?
CASA volunteer 08.20.08 at 8:29 pm
Thomas: why would you say that CASA and CPS are a distinction without a difference?
Jeny 08.20.08 at 8:52 pm
Ron–What you know about me and about Catholicism you could put in a thimble and still have room left over for a nice stiff drink. Sorry–but that’s God’s truth.
I am a good Catholic. I attended Catholic school from Kindergarten to 8th grade.
I have done as my church asked and produced children–all of whom I have had Baptised as Catholics. I promised–in a solemn vow before God, which is justas sacred as the vow of Marriage or taking the vow of Sisterhood or the Priesthood, to raise them in the Catholic Church.
As a lay woman in the Catholic Church, *that* is the most important role I can fuflfill. To produce more Catholics.
Beyond that, I am a Catechist–I teach Kindergarten through 5th grade Catechism. I volunteer my time, talent and treasure as my Church asks.
I also live by “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers (and sisters), that you do unto me”. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I understand the FLDS’ pligbt far more than you have ever tried or will ever try. I have mentally put myself in their shoes and to be an FLDS mother right now is to be frightened for your life and the lives of your children–people you would gladly give your life for in order to protect. Each day not knowing if this is the day CPS comes for your babies again and possibly being the last time you ever see them again.
The *only* way to deal with such incredible and oppressive stress is to pray, smile and get through the day as if nothing is wrong–so that your children feel safe and secure from the government, whether or not that is the actual reality–you do this while leaning on God’s love and strength to see you through each and every day. I can’t imagine enduring this day in, day out, with no end in sight.
Ron, I find your attitude towars most here insulting, condescending and at times, intolerable. Your participation, along with SKK’s near total takeover of the comments section, has had a negative effect on some of the discussions taking place here at Kurt’s blog.
You don’t have to like or agree with many of the beliefs of the Mormon Faith (for instance, I vehemently disagree with their post-mortem baptisms of those who’ve already chosen their faith in life–such as Catholics relatives of theirs), you don’t have to like or agree with many of the beliefs of the FLDS faith (like polygymy), to be a good Catholic. You can still extend love and prayers to them at their time of trouble and be a Catholic in good standing. I am most certainly a Catholic in good standing.
Like I said, what you know about Catholicism you could put in a thimble and still have room left over for a good stiff drink.
Beyond that, your outright hatred and bigotry for all things Mormon and FLDS shows. The way you speak to Pliggy is absolutely reprehensible. WWJD? Certainly not treat Pliggy the way you do.
I used be very bigoted against Gays, but I am not anymore. I befriended a gay man and learned he is more like me than not, and that as a child of God he is deserving of love just like we all are.
Now that we’re allowing Gays to marry–I really can’t see what the problem is with allowing the FLDS to marry multiple people–so long as all parties are of age, give full consent and are aware of all parties involved, what is the big deal?
Is it for me? No. No more than Gay marriage. But if they’re not hurting anyone (and I don’t see the FLDS hurting anyone), then why they hatred? Why the knives and daggers for people who just want to be left alone to worship God in the way their conscience allows?
Again….WWJD? He certainly would not be bigoted or filled with hate.
At the end He said: “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”.
God Bless,
Jeny
Jeny 08.20.08 at 8:58 pm
“CASA volunteer { 08.20.08 at 8:29 pm } Thomas: why would you say that CASA and CPS are a distinction without a difference?”
Because in Texas, at least, that has been shown to the the actual case.
CASA, AAL, GAL and CPS all play on the same team. Judge Walther’s and Justie O’Neill’s team.
Jeny 08.20.08 at 9:00 pm
“25 Bob { 08.20.08 at 10:20 am } Barbara Jessop did the right thing. If you answer some seemingly innocent questions and then try to take the 5th on others, the court may rule that you have already waived your privelege.”
Exactly right. The court has shown a propensity for ASSUMING things that are not fact.
I am certain they would assume even 1 answer would ensure they assumed the 5th had been waived on Mrs. Jessop’s part.
Ron in Houston 08.20.08 at 9:24 pm
Jeny @ 8:58
The statement you made is absolutely incorrect. The AAL for the 11 year old male child worked to convince the judge not to put him into foster care.
CASA volunteer 08.20.08 at 9:33 pm
As a CASA volunteer, there are many times that we don’t agree with CPS and advocate for a different outcome in a case. You paint CASA’s with the same broad brush that you accuse others using on the FLDS
Jeny 08.20.08 at 9:38 pm
CASA volunteer { 08.20.08 at 9:33 pm } As a CASA volunteer, there are many times that we don’t agree with CPS and advocate for a different outcome in a case. You paint CASA’s with the same broad brush that you accuse others using on the FLDS
Can you provide us where this has happenened for the children in the YFZ/FLDS case?
I don’t know of a single example that could be pointed to in this case. But I am willing to admit I could be wrong, and would be delighted if someone could prove me wrong.
Jeny
kbp 08.20.08 at 10:01 pm
Jeny,
While it is obvious some AAL”s & GAL’s either have an agenda or mindset similar to O’Neill’s team, I hesitate to put them all in the same group.
I know of a few that are NOT on that team, they actually oppose it.
******
CASA volunteer,
Is Voss on the board you serve when doing volunteer work?
I agree that we should not use that “broad brush”, it is an assumption for the many we do not know about.
One needs to remember that so far we have not seen any thing that indicates ANY members of CASA, CPS… are at all concerned with what has been going on. So, when commenting on them, it is easier to group them together than try to search for the specific names we know of. Not a good excuse, but it fits often!
I am sure their are a few heroes we’ll never read about.
If you disapprove of any conduct you know of, just let captivefldschildren@gmail.com know of it.
SKK 08.20.08 at 10:03 pm
Jeny { 08.20.08 at 8:58 pm }
Because in Texas, at least, that has been shown to the the actual case.
CASA, AAL, GAL and CPS all play on the same team. Judge Walther’s and Justie O’Neill’s team.
Not true at all. Which “team” was the AAL on in Merianne Jessop’s case? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?
rikitikitavi1 08.20.08 at 10:04 pm
CASA volunteer, CASA in this case has been caught lying to parents & children. CASA has told several parents that initially they felt there were no concerns & that most or some the children should be returned, but that is not what CASA testified to at the April hearing. Plus, CASA withheld information from parents re: parenting classes when asked directly, yet not 10 minutes later, the same CASA was telling an ad litem everything about the classes: when they would start, who the providers were, when the classes had to be completed. CASA in Texas = CPS. I have never had a case where CASA testified to a position different than that of CPS either.
Thomas Forguson 08.20.08 at 10:06 pm
Casa volunteer, It appears that you both work closely together. You both work for a court system that has little regard for parental rights. Unless someone has a biological or emotional connection to a child, it is difficult to how you can have sufficient insight to be a voice for any child. This is a paticular problem when you are dealing with a unique culture like the FLDS. You maybe a sweet and kind person, but it is difficult to see how you can represent a child about whom you may know very little. The only voice for a child is a good parent. If a parent cant be trusted to do this, it is difficult to see how a stranger could do this. A Casa representitive, Ms. Trevino, was part of the kangaroo proceedings against Barabra Jessop. She claimed that Ms. Jessop failed to be present for an appointment three times when a more likely explanation that it was a scheduling snafu on the part of CPS. Lastly, the representatives from CASA and CPS were traveling together to pick up the daughter of Barbara Jessop. Both dodged the media so noone could watch their dirty work.
CASA volunteer 08.20.08 at 10:19 pm
I am not with San Angelo CASA, but I asssure you that if you give me the names of the CASA’s that were lying to parents that there would be some attorneys out there that would be very interested. rikitikitavi, where do you practice law, inferring from your comment that you do…I am sure I can call the local office and get you examples of where CPS and CASA do not agree. Or is it possible that disagreements are mediated before court? You must know as an attorney that the best work to get an agreement is done before you get into court.
kbp 08.20.08 at 11:06 pm
“…I am sure I can call the local office and get you examples of where CPS and CASA do not agree”
None from memory?
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 8:49 am
So much hyperbole and misinformation. CASA is all about the children so they are far less concerned about parental rights.
CPS is overburdened so unless they see serious danger they will often want to get out of cases.
I’ve seen a number of cases where CASA and CPS are not on the same page.
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 9:18 am
Ron,
What “evidence” did CPS use to justify removing all the children, including the boys, in the infamous raid? What signs of abuse were clearly evident?
Has the concern about their “indoctrination” now been thrown out?
And how backasswards that would be.
Remove all the “at risk” females, but leave the males who are allegedly being “indoctrinated” to abuse the females? If one’s goal is to end oppression, where do you start? Isolating the victim or removing the perpetrator? Oh yeah, they can’t remove the perpetrator. Cause there’s not proof of one.
This would all be so laughable if not so tragic.
Who could stop this fiasco? What would have to happen? And if it’s possible, why isn’t it being done?
And why are most (all?) of the mothers and their children living elsewhere, at great expense? Did CPS threaten to take the kids again if they returned to their homes?
Thomas Forguson 08.21.08 at 9:32 am
Ron in Houston, Enough of this about this being for chldren. Only in extreme cases can parental rights be ignored. In most cases, if you ignore the parents rights, you will hurt the child. There are two big problems with the Casa volunteers. They have no natural conection to the child and makes difficult for even the most dedicated volunteer to speak for the child. Secondly, they work under CPS. In most cases, the parent is best qualified to speak for the child.
kbp 08.21.08 at 9:48 am
The BIGGER picture!
Pay attention to the names, consider what influence they have within the FLDS.
Then note the pursuit of the assets, as Wisan acts like he is giving property to the rightful owners; the church members and residents. All contingent restrictions of what the owners can then do with their property, some “you almost own your home” restrictions established by a board of EX MEMBERS of the church!
The authorities are not starting at the bottom of the ladder here.
kbp 08.21.08 at 9:56 am
Ron
“CASA is all about the children”
Yes, and we’ve seen how that works. The great reason for any conduct, whether or not it violates rights, it’s “all about the children”. Just ask CASA board member Voss, she’ll tell where their pocket books hearts are.
“CPS is overburdened so unless they see serious danger they will often want to get out of cases.”
That was obvious in all they have shown us!!! Lets see, like the suit of the 5 YO child with down syndrome, you know, the one in “serious danger” .
“I’ve seen a number of cases where CASA and CPS are not on the same page.”
Speaking of numbers, have you seen the most recent increase in the NUMBER of children kidnapped for adoption in Texas?
rikitikitavi1 08.21.08 at 10:55 am
CASA volunteer, the CASA who lied to the parents was the same one who got up in court & toed the CPS-party line at the April hearing.
a cricker critter 08.21.08 at 11:04 am
in my humble opinion, Walther and crew are threatening the children to get mothers to testify against men, so when the evidence from the raid is thrown out, they can say it has been proven in court…even tho this feels like a loss, it is still better to not talk, than to seal your own doom!
M.E.
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 11:04 am
And don’t ya know there are well-intended but misguided baptist fundamentalists watching with great enthusiasm, salivating over the possibility of fostering/adopting some of these kids for the big conversion.
They’ll have em eatin’ steak fingers, watching TV, participating in mindless/useless activities, introduce them to the “rod”, indoctrinate them with the “fear of (their)god”, and have them proselytizing to their peers… in a jiffy.
Just warms the cockles of their hearts to be of such service to their god.
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 11:13 am
oh, and let us not forget, they’ll have to have their Dip-Tet and psych drugs to function in the screwed up culture they’ll be thrown into.
CASA volunteer 08.21.08 at 11:32 am
kbp: I was specifically asking rikitikitavi for the office that she works with assuming she is an attorney. There are many CASA branches in the state and across the country.
rikitikitavi: that would be the executive director and i doubt she would “toe” (tow) any party line because there is not one.
as for kidnappings for adoption: never heard of them. I would think there would be an Amber Alert or something, don’t you
for those of you that are so discouraged with the system, try to become a voice for change in it. how many of you were in court this past week? how many of you are volunteer advocates? how many of you are foster parents? how many of you are parent advocates? or are you just bitching on a blog?
CASA volunteer 08.21.08 at 11:37 am
One more thing…one imporant thing that you need to know about CASA, and these cases in general, is that they are fluid. What you feel or believe one day may change with additional evidence or experience tomorrow. As a CASA I have had a gut feeling about cases (either positively or negatively) and have changed my mind at times. It’s ok to say you were wrong, or that there were things not considered. I have advocated both ways- for a child to go home or for a child to stay in care when I have originally advocated the opposite view. We are not attorneys whose job is black and white, we are allowed the freedom to hear both sides and make what we feel is the best recommendation. perhaps that is why rikitikitavi does not understand why CASA could change their stance, if it was even changed at all.
rikitikitavi1 08.21.08 at 11:43 am
CASA volunteer, I was present for both incidents that I related.
Kurt Schulzke 08.21.08 at 11:44 am
CASA volunteer –
Playing “within” the sytem — as a volunteer, for example — isn’t necessarily the best way to reform it. The “bitching” here, for the most part, serves a valuable purpose in informing and molding opinion that may lead to changes in the political arena at a higher level.
K
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 11:47 am
Are your recommendations left to your discretion or is there a cookie cutter algorithm advocates follow. Who do you answer to? What qualifies you to make life changing decisions about other people lives that can have devistating effects? Does this win you points with your god, or is it “just a job”?
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 11:56 am
kbp
I have to be honest. There are a number of people in the system that are very concerned about the corrupting influence of the amounts of money people will pay to adopt infants. I’m one of those people. That being said there is no big nefarious plot to kidnap children for the adoption market.
Thomas
You really have a big mouth and spout a bunch of nonsense.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 11:59 am
You guys should really lay off CASA. How many of you people volunteer to spend vast amounts of time to help protect children? CASA volunteers spend loads of time monitoring the schooling, medical, and psychological needs of their charges.
Seriously, talk about people in glass houses.
Kurt Schulzke 08.21.08 at 12:00 pm
Ron & Thomas –
I would appreciate it if you would avoid the nasty ad hominems and stick with the issues.
Ron — Before you conclude that there is no systemic conspiracy to “legally” kidnap children, please take time to read:
http://iperceive.net/cps-a-national-empire-built-on-taking-children-georgia-senator-schaefer-warns/
The Adoption and Safe Families Act unfortunately provides major financial rewards to those who move children through the system.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 12:13 pm
Kurt
I’ll be the first to say that the system has changed a whole lot over the time I’ve practiced. There is way, way too much emphasis on termination and adoption.
I can agree to a whole lot of what that Georgia Senator had to say. It is a problem that I think needs to be addressed. However, to try to argue the whole system is a vast conspiracy is just silliness.
Thomas Forguson 08.21.08 at 12:46 pm
Kurt what did I do wrong?
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 2:46 pm
Ron,
You are clearly an apologist for CPS or ignorant of the rampant corruption within CPS. The latest spotlights (more than one) on CPS revealed their “honor system” -employees required to self-report brushes with the law. A minimum of 370 have criminal backgrounds. Charges that would preclude any other person from having contact with children either in a foster home, child caring institution, or daycare facility.
The second being close ties between CPS shrinks and drug companies. Kids taking chemical soups of mind-altering drugs.
This, following the fairly resent exposure that foster kids were used as guiena pigs in the development of Bush’s TMAP project.
CMAP, for kids, has been put on hold during the investigation.
To read just one story google “Medicating Aliah”.
The biggest problem with CPS, with DFPS, is they are like the Gestapo and have immunity. They destroy people’s lives with little or no evidence to support their demented suspicions. One is presumed guilty until proven innocent, and there’s far too many cases that their ruling stood even after innocence was proven. They are not benevolent. They are more interested in being “right” than fair or just. Look at some of the hell-hole gulags they put kids in and you could not conclude that they have the kids best interest at heart. They deserve every ounce of bile directed toward them.
Every branch of government should have checks and balances, with should include CPS. To allow anything else is to say that CPS and their imbecile employees are without fault.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 3:07 pm
Curious
I’m not an apologist for CPS but I don’t think the characterization of “rampant corruption” is fair either.
The drug issue is I think overblown. Part of the reason these kids come into care is that the parents have problems like manic-depression, ADHD, or other mental disorders that tend to pass genetically to their offspring. I also believe that it’s part of our society having a generally negative attitude to psychiatric medications.
Governmental immunity is something I feel strongly about. I feel our governmental institutions have way too much immunity. The other things you say in that paragraph (guilty until proven innocent, more interested in “right” than “fair”) have a lot of truth to them.
I’ve had loads of cases over the years where CPS rightfully realized they didn’t need to get involved. They’re flawed for certain but they’re not a bunch of child stealing Nazis.
txmom77 08.21.08 at 3:13 pm
Ron-
From a legal point, why do they need Merrill Jessop’s DNA? It just seems odd to me as well we all know it’s his kid.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 3:17 pm
txmom77
I suspect they want the DNA for a potential criminal charge.
kbp 08.21.08 at 6:28 pm
CASA
“or are you just bitching on a blog?”
…and to ALL elected or employed to serve the public, many groups that support causes I believe in, victims, the parties I feel are guilty of violating rights, those that can help make the public aware of the facts…
As for changing my mind, I can accept the idea there might have been crime(s) committed, and am open to being convinced of such.
At this time, I see 440+/- cases in which CHILDREN’S rights were violated. What percentage of them do you think any guilt of a crime, all absent a complaining victim, justified violating their rights?
Not to say some within CASA do not feel the same as I do, but we have not heard from any of them if they do. Hopefully we will soon hear how they felt the state violated rights of the children they are assigned to.
We do know the state got rid of ALL that did feel rights were being violated. Is that keeping them silent now?
********
Ron
“…there is no big nefarious plot to kidnap children”
Hmmmm! I guess it just got out of control and they are too stupid to have noticed it yet. Maybe if we part out the blame, a little to each involved, they won’t look quite as stupid then.
Do you have a better explanation to show it is not planned?
********
Ron
“…I suspect they want the DNA for a potential criminal charge.”
But, considering HOW they ained DNA samples so far… “there is no big nefarious plot” in which the CPS is a part of!!!!!!!
******
Curious,
I see Ron as more anti-FLDS “beliefs” than pro-CPS, and much more just plain argumentative at times!!
kbp 08.21.08 at 6:29 pm
That should read:
But, considering HOW they obtained DNA samples so far…
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 6:40 pm
Awe kbp
Me??? Argumentative? I’m just anti-hyperbole.
Is anyone really surprised that CPS works hand in hand with law enforcement to nail sexual abusers?
rikitikitavi1 08.21.08 at 7:05 pm
Ron, the AG’s office everyday files child support cases all across Texas involving underage mothers & adult fathers. How come they never turn those cases over to CPS & law enforcement, yet are pursuing statutory rape charges against the FLDS when NONE of the “victims” have filed a criminal complaint? Hypocrisy much?
kbp 08.21.08 at 7:07 pm
“…CPS works hand in hand with law enforcement”
That’s a given, but they knew of ZERO crimes when they went after those DNA samples. It was in the news 3 or 4 days BEFORE the 14 day hearing. probably a part of the FIVE DAY planning before the raid.
There’s a few “…big nefarious plot[s]“ of some kind.
Ron, you say you deal with these types of cases. Tell us about past cases that used restraining orders and REMOVAL OF ALLEGED PERPETRATOR(s). Do you know of any reasons why such tools, either, could NOT have solved the Merrianne Jessop case?
Keep in mind that the big reason, top & center, in which Barbara Jessop wouldn’t sign the agreement was the limits that restricted visiting her sister Carole at the ranch, in which the state claimed they could not “monitor”. So I must assume they “monitor” every case in which they use those tools.
Her sister Carole was also offered as a relative for placement of the children. CPS said “NO” for same reason, “monitoring”. Surprisingly, with the practice of addressing beliefs so common in all the affidavits, there was nothing to show that Carole’s were a problem.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 7:41 pm
rikitiki
Most underage sex cases fall under the “3 year rule.” While it’s illegal to have sex outside of a valid (i.e. non-bigamous non-spiritual) marriage with anyone under age 17, if the two sexual partners are within 3 years of age then its not a crime.
You also have to remember that the child support people of the attorney general are up to their necks just trying to get child support for the kids. They’re not tasked with prosecuting under age sex.
I will admit that it’s an unfortunate fact of live that the same crime may get far different attention or treatment depending upon the circumstances.
Thomas Forguson 08.21.08 at 7:42 pm
I dont accuse CPS of rampant corruption. They are certainly guilty of abuse of power. As best I can remember, there are 32,000 children in foster care. The state gets paid for the number of children in foster care. No matter the extent of actual abuse, the incentive guarentees the number never falls below 32,000. Plus the state gets paid for getting children adopted. It gets nothing for reuniting families. The incentives are wrong.
Ron in Houston 08.21.08 at 7:49 pm
kbp
1. So long as Carole lives at the ranch that’s a big problem. Ranch = home of child molesters in CPS’s mind
2. Removal of the “perp” only works if you can trust the Mom not to “throw the kids under the bus.” When mom consented to a marriage for a 12 year old, she looks like she’d throw the kid, “under the bus.”
rikitikitavi1 08.21.08 at 8:09 pm
I’m not talking about the 3 year rule. I’m talking way underage moms (like 12 & 13) & way over 18 dads. And it’s hypocritical for the same office to prosecute one group for “raping children” when they refuse to prosecute anyone else for the same crime. As attorneys, the AAGs are mandatory reporters of abuse, so if they are reporting abuse, they are breaking the law!
If other women are given the choice to come forward & press charges, why aren’t the FLDS women given the same choice? They certainly were NOT treated as victims by CPS & law enforcement while in foster care or in the concentration camps.
Thomas Forguson 08.21.08 at 8:57 pm
Ron You admit the monitoring excuse is phony. Of course CPS is biased against the FLDS. You remember the CPS abused over 400.
Thomas Forguson 08.21.08 at 8:59 pm
Ron I thought you were in Houston. I didnt know you were in San Antonio.
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 11:10 pm
Ron, you sound like CPSs Dr Burkett who testified that foster kids come from “bad gene pools”. If you’re so inclined, you can hear it from the horse’s mouth by scrolling to hour 6:22.
http://www.house.state.tx.us/fx/av/comm … 004a51.ram
CurioiusTexan 08.21.08 at 11:12 pm
The drug issue is not overblown. Big Money in drugging foster kids.
http://video.woai.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=55809&tf=woaiviewer.tpl
CPS
And there’s more, but apparently this blog only allows one link per post. More links are posted on Brooke’s blog.
kbp 08.22.08 at 12:32 am
Ron,
If either order was available for use, they would remove any subject to that order from the ranch.
I had little doubt when i asked. It may reflect more on the attorney that represented Barbara than it does on the CPS attorneys.
Though I do not have the transcripts, I’d imagine if he’d of asked why steps required were not taken it would have been reported.
I say all this assuming both orders could be used.
kbp 08.22.08 at 12:33 am
Excuse me there. I meant I say such assuming EITHER order could be used.
Ron in Houston 08.22.08 at 7:39 am
curious
Just because someone has ADHD or Autism doesn’t make them some flawed end of the gene pool. The politically correct term “differentially enabled” is actually a very apt term. We’re all dealt a particular hand in life, it’s just how we play the cards.
I don’t doubt that there are a lot of psychiatric drugs given to CPS kids. However, to draw the conclusion from that data that it’s all a vast conspiracy is just absurd.
CurioiusTexan 08.22.08 at 8:19 am
Well Ron, you clearly didn’t go to Brooke’s blog and follow the numerous links there, or you’re the apologist you appear to be. If you’re going to “demand” citations, the least you could do is look at them. You aren’t hear to learn. You’re here to defend, at all costs. Deny what’s right before your eyes. I won’t waste my time on your demands in the future.
Ron in Houston 08.22.08 at 8:57 am
Curious
Man, you didn’t even give me time to go back to Brooke’s blog, make the connection that you were TXblogger and follow your links. I have now and here’s my comments.
I’m very skeptical of the Strayhorn report. A lot of people view it as a political piece designed to bolster her in her run for Governor against Perry. From the best I can tell it’s been pulled from the State of Texas website. Even the press release you cited has her lashing out at Perry.
Your links go far and wide. Things like TMAP really aren’t issues related to foster care. Even Aliah is an issue with the state mental health system rather than CPS.
Do children get abused in foster care? Absolutely. I could give you examples I know about. Are there flaws and failures in the system? Yes.
However you try to make it sound like CPS has some vested interest in taking kids to get psychiatric drugs. Why would overburdened CPS workers want to INCREASE their case load? Further in order for it to be some conspiracy, you’d have to have a very large number of independent physicians each with their own license to worry about involved in your plot. Sorry, man really walked on the moon and the child psychiatrists aren’t risking their licenses for drug money.
Curious, you can call me apologist and I can call you some conspiracy theorist. I’m willing to admit the system is flawed. Are you willing to admit that the system sometimes does good?
CurioiusTexan 08.22.08 at 12:47 pm
So, your first defensive comment was posted before you read the information, as I suspected.
Matters not what motivated Strayhorn’s report- the facts came from CPS documents. One can only hope her report is down for editing and that she isn’t being censored.
Is this what you consider “lashing out”?
Since that time, repeated and continuing roadblocks and stonewalling have been encountered by me and my staff in attempting to secure basic and necessary data from the Health and Human Services Commission to complete my investigation.
It has been 19 months and 25 letters, emails, meetings and phone calls since I first requested foster care and corresponding Medicaid data from HHSC.
The Commission finally provided Fiscal 2004 data. But, 10 months into Fiscal 2006, we have yet to receive the Fiscal 2005 data, which we know has been available for months and months.
In March 2006, I requested all of the same data for Fiscal 2005.
The Governor’s commission has repeatedly thrown up roadblocks and stonewalled my investigation.”
What’s tragic is that the abuse inherent in foster care is ignored by Perry and the committee. He and the committee deserve a good lashing.
TMAP has everything to do with CPS, as TX foster kids were used as guinea pigs in that initiative and tax payers footed the bill. Aliah was but one example.
2 out of 3 foster kids on psychotropic drugs is a red flag for any reasonable person.
Drugging foster kids does not increase caseworkers load. Kids are sent to a CPS doc - one, as reported, a Radiologist! and another on probation for rx’ing drugs for himself and girlfriend! They come back on, most times, numerous drugs. Many not approved for use by children. The docs follow the TMAP protocol when rx’ing. Bottomline, Bush saw to it that particular drug companies (his constituents) would receive Medicad dollars, TMAP ensures it. The protocol is being adopted in other states. Google TMAP + scam or fraud and have a read.
My contribution is not conspiracy. I provided links to facts. Your continued defense indicates you have a vested interest in the status quo remaining as is. You can’t even acknowledge the blatantly obvious.
I don’t see much good coming through CPSs efforts. Time to bring the truth into the light of day and either rebuild the system from the ground up, with appropriate checks and balances, or admit they are not capable of “protecting kids” and disband the agency. If they can’t ensure kids are safer in out-of-home placements, then the illusion should be dashed and they should not be allowed the unlimited power they possess to destroy families over a pile of dirty dishes in the sink. Based on statistics, they are doing far more harm than good.
Ron in Houston 08.22.08 at 2:06 pm
Curious
No I have no vested interests in things remaining as they are. I’m also not some conspiracy theorist.
I, unlike you, have knowledge that come from things other than news reports, political hit pieces and anti-CPS websites. I have actual hands on experience with real kids and real doctors.
I can tell you that Doctor #1 will put a kid on medication and then Doctor #2 will change or possibly eliminate those medications. It doesn’t mean that Doctor #1 is in bed with the drug companies. It just means that two different physicians can look at the same patient differently.
It’s also utter and complete nonsense to say that CPS cares one way or another whether the kid receives medication. It’s also just complete crap to say these kids are “guinea pigs.”
It’s a flawed system, there are things that need fixing in the system. It would be nice if the Texas Legislature would allocate more money to try to fix it.
However, it’s not some adoption factory where kids are used as guinea pigs for the benefit of big drug companies and their greedy doctors. That’s just delusional.
a cricker critter 08.22.08 at 2:33 pm
Ron, how about the theory that if a child’s whole world just got tossed, and they may be acting out some of their fear and anger, that a caseworker may decide it is simpler to get tehm on medication than try to convince a child that white is black, or vice versa? that is, to me, the reason so many children end up on medication while in CPS “tender” care.
M.E.
CurioiusTexan 08.22.08 at 3:12 pm
Interacting with you is a waste of time. It’s evident that you didn’t read the information.
More and more money has been thrown at CPS. Fundamental problems persist. It’s not lack of money, it’s bad policies.
Ron in Houston 08.22.08 at 3:23 pm
cricker critter
From my experience:
1. Kids are born of families that have suffered from such inherited mental problems as ADHD, manic depression, autism or the like.
2. Abused kids often suffer from PTSD or anxiety disorders. Many sexually abused kids may also suffer from personality disorders.
And your theory also is correct. There is a lot of stress associated with removal from your home. I think a lot more could be done on things like cognitive therapy as opposed to drugs.
It’s really just too hard to generalize. Like I said its not like CPS is a bunch of drug pushers to their child guinea pigs.
CurioiusTexan 08.24.08 at 1:08 pm
Do you really think 2 out of 3 foster kids need mind-altering psychiatric drugs, some of which are not approved for juvenile use?
Is that where we’re headed as a society? All the troublesome kids with troublesome parents with “bad genes” will be institutionalized and drugged? Do you happen to know CPSs shrink mouthpiece, Dr Burkett? That’s his opinion too.
Mental Illness/Disorders, whatever you choose to call them… there is no scientific proof, to date, that they are genetic, that there is anything wrong with the brain or genes, or even exist for that matter. All subjective.
Even if there was proof that ADD was a legitimate brain disorder with genetic underpinnings, do you think cocaine is the “cure”? From a ‘medical’ perspective, does the kid have a cocaine deficiency of which Ritalin cures?
What is your problem? Do you hate foster kids? At least admit the obvious. To do that you’ll have to look at the links I provided and forgo your uneducated sound bites of fear mongering and apologies for CPS. The agency is so corrupt, I no longer believe it can be repaired.