No faith in Texas CPS: What to do with a broken system?

Excellent article.

If the lawyers that see something ‘wrong’ with CPS would begin to band together to fight it, then we might see CPS change, but right now, all of them run scared (perhaps for fear of the damage to their client(s)) but until judges, administrators, etc., begin to see with clearer vision that CPS is corrupt and more harmful than parents/families…it will continue to be a “Bully” and will continue to traumatise families for one reason…because it can.

Who, other than God, is going to hold them accountable for the pain they inflict and the families THEY destroy?

I know I’ll mangle this quote - but “when good men do nothing, evil prevails.” It’s similar to something the Bible says - “To him that knoweth to do right, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

Makes one wonder why congress keeps voting to pour more money into the kidnapping/child brokering business/bureaucracy. If voters hate it, why is still there? Isn’t that the definition of tyranny? The fact is, congress is not populated with real people, it’s populated with the elite, members of the Councel on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Masons, multi-millionaires clubs, etc.

They would take your child and put him on the street if they could, or sell her to a child predator. More dependents on the system, which is exactly what they want. The family nucleus, extended families, family rights, separatists all are the antipathy of universal state control. Divide and conquer is their motto.

Kurt, good article.

SKK, would you rather have 5 abused children correctly removed from their parents and homes AND have 5 non-abused children incorrectly removed from their parents and homes OR would you rather have no children erroneously removed from their homes but only 1 or 2 of the 5 abused children removed?

If you’re still leaning towards accepting collateral damage to 5 kids to save 5, consider that 1 in 5 children in foster care are severely abused and another 1 in 5 is mildly abused. This will include the 5 erroneously removed.

Yes, we need to protect children in extremely abusive homes (some state CPS will remove kids for spanking, or in one case because the father screamed at a kid and used profanity). To do so with as little collateral damage as possible to others will require a number of safeguards that will slow the process down to a huge degree and a number of kids will fall through the cracks. But 2 or 3 kids falling through the cracks, as bad as it is, is better than what we have today.

Of course then there will be cries to save all the kids falling through the cracks and the safeguards will be removed and we’ll just start all over again…

SKK misses the whole point. You think privatizing the industry is going to help? That will only make things worse. You would just be incentivizing the perpetuation of the attrocities. More children in the system = more money for the industry; which leads to more children taken from and kept from parents. This will happen at Tax payer expense of course, and the private companies who process the children will lobby congress for money. Might as well just take all children from parents at birth and have them run in institutions.

Privitization isn’t the answer. DFPS/CPS must still regulate those facilities, and they haven’t done such a good job in the short amount of time this effort has been underway.

There are no easy answers. Clearly there are kids in horrendous situations that could use assistance. It’s a waste of taxpayer money to have CPS incarcerating kids and investigating parents because the parent purchased the kid a Mike’s Hard Lemonade, not knowing it was an alcoholic beverage. Used to be it was the parents decision if/when their child could drink. WHEN did that change? And why? Zero tolerance and ’state acting as parent’ is a significant factor in the current madness that is CPS. My friend in Australia tells me they are still very relaxed with this and have far fewer problems than the US.
Mike Males addresses this in an essay, “Freedom: For Adults Only”

Taking away kids who wander off is not justified either. It happens. One of the FLDS kids was missing for a day because he hid in the shelter. S*** happens. It’s life.

NO child should be removed because a family has financial difficulty. Parents struggling to provide should be given at least the equivalent amount of money given to foster parents, provided they are demonstrating an effort-working. They can’t control the monetary limits society puts on their contributions and we’re a long way from a nationwide “Living Wage” for everyone.

I think there is a lot of misplaced pressure on the agency to save ‘every’ kid from any harm that might befall them. That is an unrealistic expectation. CPS will never save every child. And everytime a child dies the finger is pointed at the agency. There is public outrage and more $$$ is thrown at a fundamentally flawed system. At the end of the year the stats remain the same. Little or no improvement in number of deaths, little or no improvement to those aging out of CPS control.

Won’t be easy to change the status quo, lots of people invested in it remaining as it is. It requires that more enlightened people take on decision making positions within the state. There are more respectful and successful models out there. One such program is Wraparound Milwaukee.

States should consider this model. While currently geared toward kids with MH needs, it could easily be adapted for any population. The goal is keeping the family together (not just lip service) and providing the family with the resources they need for success. Kinda like an army of Super Nanny’s and skilled experts and social workers. It’s cost intensive in the first couple of months with a new client because it may require a round-the-clock therapist and sometimes as many as 5 workers to be in the home 24/7 until the family/child is stabilized. After that, it’s just maintenance and significantly less expensive than foster care or placement in RTCs.

If the money paid to foster parents/RTCs was directed at such an effort there would be no added expense, in fact a savings. From a 3-part series on Wraparound Milwakee:
Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.
I can’t find the awesome 3-part article, but here’s the link. Might find it in one of the ‘way back machine’ services.
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/1part3.htm

As you can imagine, the RTC industry opposed WM.

Until change is made, watchdogs need to monitor and report CPS to the media. Write to the senators that oversee CPS. I believe they should be requried to give Miranda Rights to a parent who is being investigated and the parent should be able to decline an interview unless they have their attorney present. That cuts short those who can’t afford legal representation, because they’ll be appointed one of CPS or the court’s choosing. But better than nothing.

Everyday there is news of a child being abused or killed. It’s a fact of this culture. The real issues are much broader than CPS, or what CPS can ‘fix’. They just (ideally) attempt to clean up the fall-out of a highly distressed society. The US needs to look at other countries that treat their citizens with respect. When people are able to meet their basic needs and don’t live with the daily stress of making ends meet, there is more happiness and less crime and abuse.

They’ve been given way too much power and have abused it under guise of Saving Children. When a child is four times more likely to be killed in CPSs care, where is the justification for removing them?

Daniel Quinn wrote an parable, “Protecting the Environment: Whose Business Is It?” that outlines why CPS and other attempts at social control through laws and regulation don’t work.
Excerpt- a community was in reaction from an increase in teen suicides:

A member of the general public — an ordinary citizen — at last managed to gain the floor to make a statement. “Instead of spending all this time, energy, and money to prevent children from doing what they want to do,” she said, “why don’t we spend some of it to find out why they WANT to do it in the first place? What is IMPELLING them to self-slaughter? We need the answer to that question, and when we have it, we need to do something about it. Then we won’t HAVE to patrol the river and guard the roofs and lock up our neck ties and all the rest.” Well, this statement shocked the assembly into a long moment of silence. Then a wave of baffled looks and shrugs traveled round the room, and the council members resumed their former conversation at precisely the point at which it had been interrupted.

The question is: Why? Why was this upstart citizen ignored? It was because she was not going along with the idea that pre-adolescent suicide is government business. We all know what the business of government is. The business of government is making and enforcing regulations. Governments approach ALL problems as problems of making and enforcing regulations. They reduce all problems to things about which regulations can be made and enforced. This upstart citizen was trying to propose an approach to the problem that had nothing to do with regulations, and so she was ignored — and rightly so, from the point of view of the city council.

“Hell, you can demonize anything, and everything!”

Yes, you have proven that quite well already.

My opinion? Abolish CPS. But what will happen to the abused children, you ask? Well, if a child is being beaten to death, report it to the authorities. Charges will be pressed, the parent put in jail. problem solved, in that instance. But what if a child isn’t being beaten? Well, then it’s not LE’s job is it? Perhaps it’s your job. Perhaps it’s the community’s job to step in and lend a helping hand to that poor mother, or that poor father, who left his kids alone for a few hours. You need to intervene. The local church can intervene. And if there’s a law that says the child shouldn’t be left alone, then report it to LE, while you, the citizen step in help the parent. LE can take over and press charges, and the parent will learn the hard way, but the just way. No need for CPS. NO NEED FOR CPS.
And if citizens start reporting to LE every instance of a child running around barefoot in the street, instead of simply lending a helping hand, those citizens should be charged with false/frivolous reporting.

Sorry R, educating you or arguing with you isn’t high on my list of priorities at the moment- besides its another discussion. This one’s about CPS and should/could be done.
The info is out there if you genuinely want to compare the US with other countries. You could start with this question, “Why is the US ranked near the bottom” in terms of health care for its citizens? Look at the UN report of quality of living and come back and report how the US compares to other nations in that study.

Crusty - I would rather err on the side of removing too few abused children as opposed to removing too many erroneously.

Merianne is a close call. The parents have shown a woeful inability to protect her from abuse and put her interests above their own. I dont think the parents are able to put the child’s interests first. I think it is abusive to have a little girl marry a 50 year old man and become his 60 something wife …particularly when that man was a federal fugitive wanted for sexual crimes against children. I think her parents ruined her life by age 12 and sentenced her to a life of bondage without hope. Yes, I think she was abused and I dont think there was a typical parent-child bond in any event, so this imagery of ripping her from the bods of affection in her nuclear family … I think that’s a fallacy. I think she has a better chance at a meaningful future now.

Then I see how you would have advocated in true adversarial fashion for taking the children of Christy Marr or the parents of Jessica Scovil. All you attorneys do is embellish the alleged facts of the case, make them out to be far worse than they really are in court, and bingo, another win in your portfolio.

You say you would rather not remove a child erroneously. The fact is no parent is perfect, and it’s very easy to dream up scenarios where the child would be in mortal danger or have no future if remained with their parents. But that is fantasy. It’s all in your head. No one can prove that Merrianne was literally, 100% in physical danger if left with her mom…not even 50% or 10%. I would say she is in far more danger currently in the care of strangers than with her mom. But your prejudice won’t allow you to see that.

I saw the video. What’s shocking is that a mother would not just promise to protect her daughter or agree to accept services or do whatever she needed to do to be accountable and prevent having her daughter placed in foster care a second time. Whats shocking was the way the mother exploited the child’s distress by bringing along a videographer. What was truly tragic was the way the mother failed to offer even the slightest bit of comfort or a gentle word or loving touch. That video was sickening, and it is a testament to the dysfunction in that mother-child relationship.

Did you see it??

I am a registered nurse and I believe the first step in reforming CPS is to eliminate Mandatory Reporters. E.R. doctors routinely report injuries that they personally would not consider abuse but all doctors are practicing defensive medicine for fear of being sued. So in many cases they just pass the buck and let CPS decide if it’s abuse. In recent years dentists are doing the same thing, and if your child has too many caveties they call CPS and report you for neglect.

I have never called that agency, and I wouldn’t unless in my own judgement (not theirs) that there was clear and unmistakable abuse. I may get arrested one of these days but I’ll just consider it my contribution to the “cause”.

I saw the video. What’s shocking is that a mother would not just promise to protect her daughter or agree to accept services or do whatever she needed to do to be accountable and prevent having her daughter placed in foster care a second time.

What she refused to do is to testify in a manner that could have been used against her in the future.

She did attempt to prevent her daughter from going into foster care. CPS offered kinship placement cynically, then turned down every one of her suggestions.

Texas will re-think what kind of a monster they have allowed the CPS to become, one forced to feed itself, when they get the final bill.

Ok but why bring a videographer along when you daughter is in such distress? That’s cruel and it appears exploitative. I feel so badly for little Merianne.

Ok fine … document it for protection. Why publish it on the www?

That’s their side? Publicizing a video documenting the mother-child dysfunction?

I think there’s another reason

What’s missing from the discussion of Merianne is any reference to sexual abuse. Was she sexually abused? Entering into somekind of “marriage” where there is never any sexual activity is not sexually abusive. The facts of her case, as much as I’ve been able to discern them, do not add up to abuse or neglect.

Please let me know if I’ve missed something over the past couple of weeks I’ve been away from this subject. Specifically, what facts were introduced at any hearing which meet the statutory definitions of child abuse or child neglect.

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=32

Mom assures maximum distress of her daughter.

She can persuade her 12 year old daughter to “choose” to marry a 50 year old fugitive with 62 other wives, but she cannot coax her out of the car — are you kidding me?? She’s exploiting her daughter for PR .. and that is repulsive.

Doran –

The discussion is not about whether sexual abuse occurred because there’s no allegation that Merianne’s parents sexually abused her. The question is whether her mother placed her in an environment or allowed her to remain in an environment that exposes her to harm (i.e. - places her at risk).

I think it’s harmful per se to give your 12 year old daughter as the 62nd “wife” of 50 year old fugitive on the lam for sexual crimes against children .. particularly when said “husband” had previously impregnated underage girls, and that was known to Merianne’s parents.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0527081inside1.jpg

Here’s part of the definition of “neglect”

(4) “Neglect” includes:

(B) the following acts or omissions by a person:

(iv) placing a child in or failing to remove the child from a situation in which the child would be exposed to a substantial risk of sexual conduct harmful to the child; or

(v) placing a child in or failing to remove the child from a situation in which the child would beexposed to acts or omissions that constitute abuse under Subdivision (1)(E), (F), (G), (H), or (K) committed against another child; or

I think this situation is pretty solidly within the definition of neglect.

alleged SKK,

Your saying that spoken religious ceremony and a photo in the middle of the night two years ago is proof that Marrianne is abused?

Oh, I get it. That is “illegal activities” to you.

I can just imagine what the headlines would have been like for the tabloids in Texas would have said if that video was not made and distributed.

It would probably look like the headline “Polygamist Sect leader’s daughter accuses FLDS official of harassment”
Remember that one? The one before Teresa decided to publish her emails about Nancy Malonis?

I can see it now:
“Sect teen freed from Captivity of the FLDS”

SKK, you can think what you want about secret FLDS betrothals, and you can draw inferences on that smooch photo you linked to which looks photoshopped to me, but regardless…Let me know when a real expert (other than a 16K/yr CASA worker), studied in the particular culture in question, affirms that this so called sealing ceremony puts M. at imminent and substantial risk of sexual abuse. When you got that, let me know. I won’t hold my breath. While your at it get an ethics scholar to weigh the circumstances and pros and cons of placing a girl in statistically dangerous foster care, as opposed to continued monitoring of and doing everything possible to HELP not hurt the parents. We’re talking compassion and understanding here, something in short supply these days in the system. FLDS has already renounced underage marriage. They’ve been forthright so far. I’d give them the benefit of the doubt. But that’s asking too much of CPS, I know.

Whats shocking was the way the mother exploited the child’s distress by bringing along a videographer. What was truly tragic was the way the mother failed to offer even the slightest bit of comfort or a gentle word or loving touch. That video was sickening, and it is a testament to the dysfunction in that mother-child relationship.

What’s disgusting was the release of the photos of the infamous “french” kiss and private diaries. Who collected that evidence? CPS is obligated to protect their victim’s privacy. These young lady’s pictures and personal thoughts were used like tabloid trash.
Not sure I’d coax my kid out of the car either, to turn them over to the gestapo. CPS could go in after them and peel them off the seat screaming and crying, so they could feel the full ramification of the harm they were doing. They should experience that more often, to the point they can’t sleep at night and have to re-evaluate their career choice.

K:

I lived in China for 30 years and never heard of 300+ children were removed by government at one night. The FLDS raid is really a big surprise to me because I still can’t believe it really happened in the world best country which I worked hard for years to immigrant to. I really never heard of CPS or similar agency in China, maybe because the government is too poor to afford the foster care system. One thing I agree is that if you give those government agency too much power, they will play it and enjoy holding the power.

Hey Joey — I agree with your idea of helping, not hurting, the parents. If you’ll read my early post in this thread, I said the case of Merianne is a close call. If nothing changes with her parents, I do think she is better off out of the home, at least temporarily — but only if she is helped and not forgotten while she is in foster care.

To anyone saying there is no harm in marrying her off illegally at 12 years old, that is really out of touch with reality. She’s a little girl, and yes I think there’s a better than average chance that she was sexually abused by her husband, Warren Jeffs, a man who is currently under indictment for sexual abuse of a child. Please do not tell me that there is no risk of sexual abuse by marrying 12 year old Merianne to this man. Maybe it can’t be proved in a criminal case (and maybe it can, I have no idea what evidence there is or isn’t) but for pete’s sake of course there’s a risk of sexual abuse.

SKK, yes, I agree there’s always a risk of sexual abuse. In society at large there is a huge risk of child sexual abuse, apparently higher and of a more violent nature than what occurs in the FLDS.
The statistics are shocking

1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18. (96)
1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18. (96)
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp

If you consider that in foster care it’s four times higher than average…hmmmm do the math.

SKK, if you had been accused of lying as much as the FLDS have been, you would document every single word, action, look, etc.

These people have been stripped of every single personal item that recorded their business, their finances, their family photos, and their thoughts written down in personal diaries. I’m sure that many of their diaries will make the media in the name of ‘justice’ for the people that wrote their intimate thoughts down.

I find it absolutely appalling that a government can come into my home, pull ALL of my personal papers including my journals, and then turn around and accuse me of a crime based on writings that tend to wax emotional as I’ve vented about circumstances in my life - And I’m a grown woman. So…a 15 year old kid is not old enough to marry, but you’ll take the diary of this same 15 year old kid and beat her emotionally and mentally with it -

So, yea…If I were FLDS every time the phone rang a tape recorder would be running. Every time a stranger showed at my door, a video camera would be running. Everytime I had to appear anywhere with anyone, we’d go in a group so that there would be witnesses to what was said, done, looked at.

These women have been criticised from the way they live, the way they dress, the way they DON’T wear make-up, to the way they comb their hair.

And you want them to just roll over and play dead so that YOU, normal US citizen, feel more comfortable because they are now ‘normal.’

Baloney.

Document, and KEEP documenting EVERYTHING, FLDS. It’s your ONLY protection, and keep posting it online so the rest of the world gets an honest report of how you’re being treated.

SKK, my earlier question/post was “Specifically, what facts were introduced at any hearing which meet the statutory definitions of child abuse or child neglect.”

You have quoted the statute, but again, what facts were introduced at the hearing concerning Merianne? If you were trying to make a case which would survive an appeal, wouldn’t you be sure that the documentary evidence was properly authenticated? that it was not hearsay? that there was some evidence other than just the marriage ceremony, such as having been left alone with WJ overnight? As far as you know was there any such evidence?
Please, don’t give us the tired old, ‘well, the judge found the evidence to be blah blah blah.’ We know what the judge in these YFZ cases has done in the past.

CPS - I’d applaud, but your name might make someone believe that I think CPS is always right.

Great post!

I changed my name for the purpose of being sarcastic since SKK has dominated this post, and will not be convinced otherwise. CPS must be her bread and butter. I don’t believe she loves her children in the least as she professes. How could someone love their child and feed them to monsters, unless they were part of the monster and made a living off it?

Chai, maybe she’s telling the truth & maybe she’s not. I for one have never heard of CPS giving someone a car or paying for their car insurance, or even paying for their transportation to & from counseling & parenting classes. I know they are supposed to pay for transportation costs, but they never do, just like they rarely provide any of the services they are supposed to.

Joey, good point.

If CPS paid SKK or D’ville to take their children, they must work for them. In other words, they brought their children for day care at CPS while they worked for CPS.

Rember what CPS did to the FLDS parents. They scattered the children all over the state forcing some to travel 700 mile round trip to see them, without compensating them a dime. Not did they offer to help when the children were returned and the parents had to round them up.

Me, Not only did they not offer to help financially, or transport the children back to San Angelo, they found ways to continue to harass the parents & children. At one shelter, CPS refused to let the parents borrow the car seats that had been used to transport the children there in the first place, then had a couple of city cops hiding nearby, waiting to play “gotcha’” if the parents drove off without the children in car seats as required. Fortunately, some parents’ attorneys showed up before parents started leaving, so calls were made to warn those who had not arrived that they would need car seats. And no, CPS did not offer to pay for those car seats. In the end, it didn’t matter if the parents brought their own car seats; they were still pulled over for a “safety check” on the car seats to make sure they were properly installed.

But what do you expect of an agency that’s so cheap that it makes mothers wash babies & toddlers in mop buckets instead of sending a couple of caseworkers to Wal-mart to get basinets?

SKK: kdp is right.the very records used to demonstrate that Warren Jeffs married Merrianne Jessop also demomstrate that he could not have had sex with her. If she is married to Warren Jeffs,no other FLDS man would dare touch her. Did you see that video? I pity any child turned over to such cold-hearted fiends. The only abuse these children have suffered have been at the hands at the hands of CPS. Merrianne desperately needs to be restored to her family.

Doran — what was introduced at trial:

1. Journal entry of Warren Jeffs detailing wedding day of Merianne Jessop date July 27, 2006. The journal describes Merrill and Barbara’s participation, consent and presence. Merrill presided over the marriage ceremony.

2. Marriage record of Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop date July 27, 2006. The record is entitled “Marriage Record” and it recites the location as Warren Jeffs’ home, Merrill Jessop officiating and Barbara Jessop witnessing.

3. Birth certificates showing the ages of Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop

4. Pictures showing Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop in various poses, embracing and kissing, dated July 27, 2006.

5. Testimony about Barbara Jessop’s obstruction of an ongoing investigation into the facts of Merianne’s case and avoidance of home visits and attempts to monitor.

6. Barbara Jessop’s own failure to answer basic questions under oath and refusal to state that she will protect her children.

There’s more …

SKK,

Let’s examine your entry:

1. Journal entry of Warren Jeffs detailing wedding day of Merianne Jessop date July 27, 2006. The journal describes Merrill and Barbara’s participation, consent and presence. Merrill presided over the marriage ceremony.

(Ok, marriage in itself is not abuse, though Texas would like to have us think so. Also, this is a religious ceremony, and not a marriage that Texas recognizes since you can only be married by the state in Texas)

2. Marriage record of Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop date July 27, 2006. The record is entitled “Marriage Record” and it recites the location as Warren Jeffs’ home, Merrill Jessop officiating and Barbara Jessop witnessing.

(wonderful. a religious ceremony is not abuse, or putting a child in danger)

3. Birth certificates showing the ages of Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop

(Well, that refutes the idea that FLDS don’t believe in birth certificates, but why does Texas suddenly recognize these ones when they didn’t recognize 26 others who “looked” underage? How do we know Marrianne isn’t 18?)

4. Pictures showing Warren Jeffs and Merianne Jessop in various poses, embracing and kissing, dated July 27, 2006.

(look here to see a picture of Obama doing this.
http://www.flds.ws/2008/09/15/lets-hope-cps-hasnt-seen-this-sex-act/

Why is there no public outcry about Obama? Could it be that it is really not perceived as abuse except when it pertains to FLDS?)

5. Testimony about Barbara Jessop’s obstruction of an ongoing investigation into the facts of Merianne’s case and avoidance of home visits and attempts to monitor.

(How is not being at home an obstruction? Maybe she needed to run to WalMart or something. She has a radius of 100 miles to travel in WITHOUT notifying CPS.)

6. Barbara Jessop’s own failure to answer basic questions under oath and refusal to state that she will protect her children.

(You say “refusal to state she will protect her children? You seem to have skipped the part that says:

“Do you think it’s in the best interests to protect a child from harm?” Schmidt asked her.

“Yes,” Jessop replied, breaking from her usual reply.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700252024,00.html

)

There’s more …

[redacted]

Where do you get your version of abuse?

SKK,

Here’s a challenge for you. Can you answer a simple question straight?

Do you work for CPS?

We already know the answer, as Kurt stated in his article:

Of all the people I have spoken with about the Texas CPS-FLDS debacle, not a single one — outside of CPS operatives themselves — has defended the system as appropriate to the purpose for which it was designed. THE ONLY DEFENDERS ARE THOSE ACTUALLY RUNNING IT.

I was just curious if you could answer this simple question with one word, and not lie.

SKK, keep it coming. I’m still waiting for proof of abuse. Even your non-proof of abuse (photos, “marriage” certificates), may be thrown out of the evidence pool as soon as it’s challenged. And with all the bad faith during the raid, who’s to say that stuff wasn’t fabricated? Is the state read the authenticate it? Never mind, we can’t trust the state anyways.
Remember how they corroborated the temple-bed rape myth? A strand of female hair on a temple bed!
You can’t fight shameless authorities like these in their own courts. You have to go over their heads.

Call me an idiot if you want to, SKK. I’ll be in good company. Your response does not address the issue of endangerment to the child. Using your type of reasoning, a parent who puts a child on the The Rattler roller coaster in San Antonio would be guilty of endangerment. I know. I rode that ride with my 12 year old son and felt really bad about endangering him.

So, did you attend the hearing?
Do you have a transcript that Kurt or kbp can post for the rest of us to read? I would like to see if, and how, the documentary and photographic evidence was authenticated.

Do you know that in order to authenticate a photograph so it can be used as evidence, someone has to testify under oath to the effect that the photo was a true and accurate depiction of what it purports to be? Who did that at the trial at which Merianne was taken from her mother? Warren Jeffs? I think not. Merianne or the photographer? Maybe, clarify that for us.

Same for the alleged “transcripts”. Who authenticated those?

Keep in mind, SKK, that this is not Poland or the USSR in the 50s. You just can’t take scraps of paper and alleged photos into a courtroom and win your case without proving that the photos and documents are authentic. Of course, it is Judge Walther’s court, so maybe that is what happened.

Educate us on these points, please, as you seem to have some info the rest of us do not have.

SKK,

I take it by your refusing to anwser my question you are guilty of being a CPS agent.

SKK, you continue to avoid the critical issue: Who testified that the photo and the transcript were in fact what the proponents claimed them to be? Just answer that question, and we will move on to the next issue.

Really. Are you tx using a new nom de plume?

A reasoned discussion would take us to a discussion of whether the persons who were the proponents of the photo and transcript had the testimony of someone with knowledge that the photo and trascript are what they are claimed to be. You know that. It is plainly set out in TRE 901(b)(1) immediately following the material you quoted above.

Stop your bluffing and name-calling. You either don’t know who the witnesses were, or you know they do not fulfill the requirement of the Rule and that reversal is inevitable.

Most blow-hards resort to name calling as a last resort, you knw.

Doran .. you see the first sentence of TRE 901(b).. where it says “By way of illustration only, and not by way of limitation…”

Ok, you were not at the hearing on Meriann’s case. You don’t know who authenticated the photos and transcript there, you don’t know what objections were made, and, most importantly, you don’t know didley about evidence law.

Check out the following in Vol. 2 of Guide to the Texas Rules of Evidence, buy Goode, Wellborn and Sharlot, page 276, quoting 5 Mueller & Kirkpatrick, Federal Evidence sec. 513:

“While the ten subdivisions of Rule 901(b) are illustrative and not limiting, they are in aggregate so comprehensive—especially with the general language in subdivision (b)(1) on testimony that a matter ‘is what it is claimed to be’ and subdivision (b)(4) on ‘distinctive characteristics’ and ‘circumstances’—that it is hard to envision a reasonable form of authenticating proof that would not be embraced by these illustrations.”

And this doesn’t even start to deal with the hearsay issues of the transcripts.

The goal of Rule 901 and of the hearsay rules in Chapter 8 is to prevent information that is not relevant to the case from being used. Information that is false, that cannot be authenticated by testimony by a person with knowledge that a matter is what it is claimed to be, is not relevant information.

These rules, if properly applied by a Court, will prevent false information from being used at trial. Does that bother you?

Yeah, I’m a lawyer. Welcome to my web, said the lawyer to the fly.

I do know who authenticated the documents, and I do know what objections were made. The fact of the matter is there were objections that could have been raised that weren’t, and not all of the evidence that was offered was admitted either.

Tell us.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-05-13/news/barely-legal-tony-alamo/

The State took advantage of nothing. Rios was having a crisis of conscience and failed to advocate for his client as well as he could have.

There are objections that could have been raised .. they likely would have been overruled even if they had been raised but we’ll never know now. That is not dishonest on the part of the State. It is not the State’s responsibility to advocate for Barbara Jessop and raise objections to its own evidence.

About “prosecutorial discretion” .. we’re not talking about prosecution, we’re talking about a civil proceeding. And incidentally the burden is not whether there’s an immediate danger, but whether remaining in the home environment is contrary to the child’s welfare. Until Barbara can show some minimum ability to use proper judgment and skills necessary to protect her daughter, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that the home is against Merianne’s welfare. I didn’t hear Barbara state that she’ll make sure Merianne has no contact with her husband, Warren. I didn’t hear her say that the marriage is void and Merianne is free to choose a spouse of her own liking when she reaches the age of majority. I didn’t hear Barbara say that she would protect Merianne and decline to obey the Prophet if he reassigns 14 year old Merianne to another adult male. I didn’t hear Barbara say a damn thing that would indicate that she is able to make good decisions for the safety and well-being of her daughter. Merianne’s parents have shown a woeful failure to protect their daughter and place her interests above their own. That apparently continues.

As I said, you apparently want the State of Texas to turn a blind eye to the abuse and neglect perpetrated by the FLDS against their children because you think they’re in some special class outside the law.

I’m not a fan of CPS, and I think the foster system is abominable as a whole. Ok? But there has to be some intervention when parents subject their twelve year old girls to risks of sexual abuse by 50 year old men.

SKK, if the rest of us are only focused on being Anti-CPS, then YOU are focused on being ANTI-FLDS.

You take ONE case and convict over 1,000 people of having the same standards even though the reason the State is non-suiting cases is because, no matter how hard it tried, it could find NO EVIDENCE OF ABUSE in all those families.

You keep harping on Merrianne’s case as if that were the ‘norm’ within the FLDS, and it evidently IS NOT as even the brother was surprised to hear about the marriage and see the pictures.

Either way - for the State to force Merrianne from her home and family when she is in NO danger, NO IMMINENT danger, is WRONG, and, once again, does not meet the requirements for removal according to CPS’s own guidelines.

And we all know how well CPS has followed their own guidelines through this whole debacle.

SKK, why the link to the Village Voice article on Tony aLAmo?

And, still waiting to know whose testimony authenticated the photo and transcript.