Andrew Stephen, writing from the U.K., pans the FBI’s Most Wanted list and asks why Warren Jeffs and the FLDS are such a cause célèbre when Hugh Hefner & bunnies aren’t. “Visiting British authors” in San Angelo, take note: some of your fellow Brits are a bit more perceptive than you are. Excerpts:
What, then, was 50-year-old Warren Steed Jeffs doing on the [Most Wanted] list two years ago? Like Bin Laden, he was also considered “armed and dangerous” and, we were told, “may travel with a number of loyal and armed bodyguards”. Such dramatic warnings were worthy of Hoover himself, but in the event, the former private schoolteacher and accountant was led away with the minimum of fuss in 2006 after cops stopped his Cadillac Escalade on Interstate 15 . . .
Yet. . . Jeffs was never accused of killing or hurting anyone himself, of stealing, drug-running or arms-running, or of personally committing any violent crime. He became one of America’s top ten most wanted fugitives [because] he sought the freedom to practise his religion the way he wanted, but discovered instead that there was a catastrophic irreconcilability between the traditions of his church and the law. . .
The tragedy of the whole terrible episode is that . . . Jeffs and his philosophies actually mirror the mores of his society far more than all the frothing indignation suggests. In the states of South Carolina, North Carolina and Kansas, for example, it was legal for older males to marry 12-year-old girls as recently as the past decade.
David Henkel, a pro-polygamy campaigner who estimates that there are 100,000 polygamists in the US - Jews, Christians, and many Muslims among them . . . - senses profound hypocrisy: “Someone like a Hugh Hefner will have a television show with three live-in girlfriends and that’s all OK,” he says. “But if that man was to marry them, then suddenly he’s a criminal. That’s insane.”
Full article at New Statesman. ht: Cali
{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
Vic 08.07.08 at 12:20 pm
I believe if it was just about a guy having as many wives as he wants, no one would have paid much attention to the FLDS. But when it’s Jeffs showing how to kiss a 12 year old. Then that’s when folks set up and took notice. Jeffs was armed and dangerous when it came to children.
TxBluesMan 08.07.08 at 12:49 pm
How about a compromise.
We’ll get the State to drop charges against the FLDS and get CPS to stop trying to get the kiddos…
Y’all will get the FLDS to admit blacks into all levels of their priesthood and to marry into their families…
They get to prove they’re not racist, and we get to prove we’re not bigoted…
kbp 08.07.08 at 12:49 pm
Hmmmm?
What was Warren convicted of Vic?
Was it for kissing a 12 year old?
Jeny 08.07.08 at 1:03 pm
” TxBluesMan { 08.07.08 at 12:49 pm } How about a compromise.
We’ll get the State to drop charges against the FLDS and get CPS to stop trying to get the kiddos…
Y’all will get the FLDS to admit blacks into all levels of their priesthood and to marry into their families…
They get to prove they’re not racist, and we get to prove we’re not bigoted…”
Ah…..we finally see TBM’s anti-FLDS agenda for what it was about all along. Race.
I extrapolate from his “deal” that TBM is black and his feelings are hurt that blacks have been excluded from the FLDS.
So….if the FLDS will just “admit they’re racist”, TBM “will get the State of TX to drop the charges and stop the CPS trying to get the kidddos”.
What a deal, TBM. Can you really make it happen? LOL
Doran Williams 08.07.08 at 1:38 pm
tx, try to stay focused.
R 08.07.08 at 2:03 pm
But when it’s Jeffs showing how to kiss a 12 year old. Then that’s when folks set up and took notice.
Funny… I could have sworn that photo wasn’t publicized until over a month after the raid.
Jeffs was armed and dangerous when it came to children.
ROFL! Warren Jeffs was not “armed and dangerous”. The FLDS in general aren’t all that heavily armed; though they did have some guns.
TBM: What, exactly, is the reason for your obsession with FLDS “racism”? How does it affect you [or any other non-member]? Are you really implying that “bigotry” should be a reason to take children away from their parents?
TxBluesMan 08.07.08 at 3:59 pm
Jeny,
You might try reading (and/or remembering) my other posts. I am Native American - surely you remember some of the bogus genocide posts in re the FLDS that I compared to the real genocide by Mormons against the Utes?
I also believe that the solution was for the FLDS to end their racist beliefs - although it is certainly within their rights to continue to believe in racism.
Is there a particular reason that you believe that when someone points out racism that they must be black? Are you saying that other races can’t object to racism?
deputyheadmistress 08.07.08 at 5:33 pm
The FLDS are roughly as racist as the former minister of Obama’s former church. I personally do not admire the views on race of either group, and I do not believe they are divinely inspired. But they are not illegal, and it’s just weird that TBM would bring them up in association with the charges against them Guess this really isn’t just about the law?
You know what else is really weird? It was not until this past July (about three weeks ago) that a member of the bloody LeBaron polygamous group who was accused of murder (the LeBaron group is known to be responsible for at least two and probably closer to three dozen murders- if not more). was put on the FBI’s most wanted list. I have been told the reason Warren made the top ten is because he was running and evading arrest. But this woman accused of murder has been on the run for years- and she still hasn’t made the ‘Top Ten.’ There’s something just a little skewed about this.
There are things to dislike about the FLDS. There are things people don’t like about me. There are things people don’t like about TBM. But I really do not see how the government can justify putting Warren on the top ten most wanted while not putting this accused murderer on the list at all until quite recently.
I think the FLDS could be forgiven for feeling like somebody in government really has it in for them.
Black person from San Angelo 08.07.08 at 5:53 pm
As a black person from San Angelo I would like to say that in general, we don’t care that the FLDS think about us. But they are definately racist, definately odd and you had better believe that if black people tried polygamy it would be considered an abomination and it would not have taken this long to have a few indictments. Jeffs is a farce, a fallen profit caught red-handed in his red car with his legs showing for all the world to see. This religion is a pyramid scheme if I have ever seen one, with the worker bees dutifully handing over their money to the corrupt higher ups, building Zion for the elite and handing over their daughters in sacrifice. It’s slavery. Look at that big beautiful Temple…. know it was built on the backs of slaves that don’t even know they are imprisoned. All in the name of Warren Jeffs? Call it what it really is…religion to the ignorant zealots, a corporation to the few in power.
cheese 08.07.08 at 5:55 pm
So is Blues crying the blues because he’s not white?
cheese 08.07.08 at 6:00 pm
Black person from San Angelo,
Maybe I could take you to lunch some time and you will see that we’re not what Blues says!
R 08.07.08 at 6:36 pm
But they are definately [sic] racist, definately odd
So? “Odd” is neither illegal nor immoral.
Jeffs is a farce, a fallen profit [sic] caught red-handed in his red car
He has a car! And it’s a red one! What horrific corruption!
Black person from San Angelo 08.07.08 at 6:58 pm
R: Ummmm in this case odd is illegal and immoral.
BTW I always spell definately wrong…but I meant to spell profit the way I did.
Cheese: lunch is a possiblity.
Kurt Schulzke 08.07.08 at 7:29 pm
Black Person –
You wrote: “if black people tried polygamy it would be considered an abomination and it would not have taken this long to have a few indictments”
I dare say that there are thousands of black muslims living in the U.S. in polygamous relationships. And outside the U.S., there are likely millions. I have one (black) friend who is the 1st of 15 sons of a father who has three wives.
So don’t give up. It’s a lifestyle that you, too, can enjoy if you so choose.
KS
deputyheadmistress 08.07.08 at 7:37 pm
So black person in San Angelo, how do you explain Jeffs making it to the top ten on FBI’s wanted list, when he’s never been charged with murder, none of the things you mention are crimes, and the ‘accessory to rape’ charge is because he performed a religious ceremony to a marriage his father and the girls’ mother arranged- while the LeBaron polygamist, who has been charged with violent crimes (murder), and has been fleeing justice far longer, still isn’t on the top ten?
I wouldn’t argue about the racism accusation. I think Jeremiah Wright is a racist, and so are the FLDS. People are allowed to be racists. It’s not illegal, and so I think it’s spurious of TBM to bring it up.
Joey 08.07.08 at 8:04 pm
I should have known TBM is non-white. I’m sorry if I offended you, TBM, in my previous arguments. I should have understood, now I do. I shouldn’t have gotten uptight and wasted my time, arguing with you in circles. Your whole motivation for arguing re the FLDS is racial.
And I think that’s what this persecution is all about. It’s an attack on the FLDS racists. Figures.
The establishment cannot permit an alternate society to exist that doesn’t buy into the prevailing ideology of racial equality. It’s bad enough that the FLDS don’t buy that man landed on the moon. But they’ve got teach their kids that whites are superior? Can’t have that.
AnonAmom 08.07.08 at 8:38 pm
Gee, I am also part Native American. My great-great-grandmother married a white man who fought for the South in the Civil War. To escape persecution she loaded up her several children and drove them by herself from the East coast to Missouri, where they settled and her husband joined her after the war.
My nieces and nephew are registered with the tribe. Between my brother’s ancestry and his blonde-haired, green eyed wife’s ancestry, they qualify.
My family is very proud of all of our ancestors. Our Irish Catholic ancestor fled religious persecution to come to America. Our German ancestors fled so their son would not face enforced conscription. My pilgrim ancestors left England due to religious persecution. And, my Cherokee ancestor left South Carolina to avoid persecution while many of her relatives died on the Trail of Tears.
My little sister in Big Brothers / Big Sisters looks black. But when asked, as a child, about her ancestry, she would say that she was Dutch. That’s because her mother’s ancestry was Dutch. She’s only, as an adult, just starting to learn about the culture and ancestry of her Father. She’s beautiful and talented. But I can tell you of many instances where people who didn’t even know us treated us poorly just because she was black, and they assumed I was her mother, and I’m white. (I also have very red skin, as my Dad and grandmother did before me. People often accuse me of having a sun burn - but its really just my great-great grandmother’s legacy.)
I cannot dislike or choose to disdain the Northerners of today - although their ancestors caused mine hardship. I cannot dislike or choose to disdain the Protestants of Ireland - although their ancestors caused mine hardship. I cannot even dislike or disdain those who have treated my little sister and I poorly (although I did suggest to their employers that the could use some training ;-] ).
What we really need is more understanding all the way around and less judging and invectives. I think that is a cultural norm we strive for as a country but miss when we decide its OK to target any group based on their beliefs, skin color, or geographic region.
I don’t like what some Texans in San Angelo have chosen to do, for example. But I have many friends from Texas and have spent quite a bit of time in the area. Texas is a diverse and beautiful state!
I don’t like some of the choices the FLDS make, but feel they have the right to make those choices.
And, I don’t like - and even choose not to read - some comments made on this and other sites. But I am very glad we live in a Country where people are free to make comments that others may find offensive.
Black person from San Angelo 08.07.08 at 9:19 pm
deputyheadmistress: who cares. put everyone who breaks the law on the most wanted list. abolish the list…it doesn’t matter. jeffs broke the law. polygamy is illegal. When it is legal, then I will be right there with ya fighting the good fight. until then, as much as you may want it to be legal…as much as my brother wants pot to be legal…..ITS NOT
Jeny 08.07.08 at 9:50 pm
BP from San Angelo:
How do you feel about the “Rev.” Jeremiah Wright preaching politics from the pulpit–while claiming an IRS tax exemption as a Church?
You do know that is against the law? Whever should we do to the Rev. Wright? Shouldn’t he be held to the law??
Hmmmmm.
Black person from San Angelo 08.07.08 at 10:26 pm
Jeny: yep
Doran Williams 08.08.08 at 1:44 am
Polygamy is not illegal in Texas; not even in West Texas. It is bigamy that is illegal.
And again, I want to say that I’m Native American, though I haven’t any American Indian genes that I know of. As I’ve pointed out, both sides of my family have been on that portion of the North American Continent which we call America, since way before the Civil War, being born, living, raising kids, paying taxes, fighting, running from the law, and dying, for that long.
Chai Tea 08.08.08 at 5:38 am
Doran…you forgot one… ‘upholding the law.’
Thanks for all your legal postings…even though you’re not advising, it’s been helpful to know how the law works and looks at things.
rikitikitavi1 08.08.08 at 8:19 am
The FLDS are patriarchal & hold what most believe to be racist views. They are listed as a “hate group” by the Southern Poverty Law Conference, even though no “hate crimes” such as lynching, cross burnings, beatings, etc have ever been linked to them. And now TBM wants us to persecute the FLDS for their “racist” views instead of the KKK or Aryan Nation, groups that have actually committed acts of violence. How come CPS isn’t trying to take THOSE kids away from their parents who are teaching them to be violent?
I don’t agree with these views, but such views are protected by the First Amendment.
However, I bet you didn’t know that some of the attorneys for the mothers are black & many are female, like me. Despite their views, the FLDS have always treated us politely & with respect. No FLDS man, no matter how strong a believer he is in the patriarchy, has ever called me a name for voicing my opinion or threatened me in anyway, unlike in our “enlightened” mainstream society, where I have been called many names, including “lesbian” for speaking out & have been threatened with physical violence.
Doran Williams 08.08.08 at 8:22 am
riki, I think I recognize your name from a famous story or poem, but cannot recall it in detail or the name of the author. Can you help me out, here?
Disciple 08.08.08 at 8:41 am
Kurt to Black Person:
“So don’t give up. It’s a lifestyle that you, too, can enjoy if you so choose.”
I would like to stress that it is not necessary to convert to Islam in order to have the blessing of more than one wife, because contrary to popular opinion the Bible (God’s Word) does not condemn polygyny.
That monogamy-only has been taught as being God’s will is the result of the Church “Fathers” being more enamored of Roman tradition than God’s Law.
TxBluesMan 08.08.08 at 10:17 am
Joey,
So non-white is not as good as white? We don’t look the same? You might want to rethink that - take a look at Holly Easterling, a Chickasaw Tribal Legislator with blond hair and blue eyes.
Many of us ‘look’ white. I don’t ‘look’ Indian.
My concerns over the racist attitudes of the FLDS have nothing to do with my concerns over them breaking the law.
They can have racist beliefs all they want, but it’s hypocritical for them to deny their racism. They can belief Warren Jeffs is the only prophet and that’s OK. They can believe that everyone is evil but them, and that’s their right.
What they can’t do is violate the law.
Kathy 08.08.08 at 10:18 am
Doran,
You’re right.
Rikki-Tikki-tavi is a short story written by Rudyard Kipling.
http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/rtt.html
rikitikitavi1 08.08.08 at 12:07 pm
Yes, it’s from a story by Rudyard Kipling about a mongoose.
Thomas Forguson 08.08.08 at 12:58 pm
Black from San Angelo The FLDS have never done blacks any harm. They have never planted crosses in anybody’s yard or crosses or drug anybody behind a pick-up. Since the raid they have revealed themselves to be articulate and not anubody’s slave.You have revealed yourself to be as bigoted any of your white counterparts.
Black person from San Angelo 08.08.08 at 4:53 pm
You are right- they mean us no harm- they think we are absolutely vital and important as the representation of evil on earth! Have you heard Jeffs teachings about blacks? just because the hate is taught in a sweet (pardon the pun) and gentle voice does not mean that it’s not hate.
If it makes you feel good to call me a bigot, that’s fine. It could not be farther from the truth. But if you must call me a bigot, could you put ‘law abiding’ first? Just to differentiate me from the FLDS bigots…
Black person from San Angelo 08.08.08 at 4:54 pm
rikitikitavi:
My experience with the FLDS has not been as positive as yours have been apparently.
TxBluesMan 08.08.08 at 5:59 pm
Black,
I like that - law abiding bigot…
Can I steal that for use when they start calling me a bigot again?
Thomas Forguson 08.08.08 at 6:21 pm
Those who spread irrational hatred like yourself are bigots. As African-American , You must realize that law-abidng bigots are the worst kind. Hundreds of innocent children were torn out of their homes and placed in the Fort Concho concentration camp. You care about none of this. Instead you are obsessed with what people say and not what they do. Wrong was done to the FLDS. They did not do wrong to others.
Jeny 08.08.08 at 6:34 pm
“Black person from San Angelo { 08.08.08 at 4:53 pm } You are right- they mean us no harm- they think we are absolutely vital and important as the representation of evil on earth! Have you heard Jeffs teachings about blacks? just because the hate is taught in a sweet (pardon the pun) and gentle voice does not mean that it’s not hate. ”
No…..but we’re all very familar with the way Jeremiah Wright feels about white folks—and the fact that Obama and his “non-white hating” wife sat right there in their pews for 20 years, donating thousands of dollars every year to help spread his message of hate.
Meanwhile, Obama wants to be the POTUS—will be be for ALL of the people, or just those with dark complexions and minority status? You know–those Obamaniacs who worship him as a deity?
Maybe you have a tape of Jeffs to share with us? I’d view it. Fair and balanced you know.
Jeny
Jeny 08.08.08 at 6:36 pm
ps. Since Obama and Michelle raised their girls in a hate-filled church, shouldn’t CPS investigate and remove them? Afterall–Rev. Wright’s racially based hate-filled religious views aren’t “mainstream”, are they?
Natalie, Judge Walther, where are you? Save the Obama girls from THEIR parents belief system.
Hmmmmm.
rikitikitavi1 08.08.08 at 6:57 pm
BP in San Angelo, my mother always said that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If the alleged racist views of the FLDS bother you so much, why not gather a group of local leaders in your community & ask politely for a meeting with the FLDS to discuss these views? If done in a non-confrontational, non-judgmental way, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the response that you get.
If that’s just too much for you, then I’ll just peg you as a malcontent & a whiner, since it’s easier for you to just believe all the BS spouted off by Carolyn, Flora, & Dan than it would be to actually treat the FLDS as humans & not monsters.
Chai Tea 08.08.08 at 7:07 pm
ummm……
Wow.
How did this become a racial-intense hatred thread about Obama?
Let’s refocus people.
I thought Andrew Stephen’s article was extremely well written and gave a good perspective of the unjustice being done within the American borders.
If it is so obvious to those outside our country, then what is there about this religion that blinds so many people with hatred?
Let’s drop the myth of dirty old men and 10 year old girls and stop using that as an excuse for the hatred gushing forth about this issue -
Why are people so intense about this people who only seek to live quietly and separately from mainstream America?
Let’s face it - we in the mainstream are not doing such a bang up job at life that we should be forcing it upon anyone. Our officials from the President on down to the local cop are untrustworthy and ‘corruptible,’ as are our ministers/religious leaders.
Everyone is pointing their fingers at Jeffs as if he crawled out from under a rock, but there are religious leaders in EVERY denomination and religion - maybe in your own churches - that have failed their high and holy calling.
So…why is he so much worse? Because, CPS and those who are supposed to be protecting the innocent, have run a massive smear campaign, not caring that they are distressing the ‘victims’ of the alleged assaults.
How come the ‘intimate’ moments of pedophiles are not being broadcast - the adultery of ministers - blah, blah, blah….
They have never been persecuted like the FLDS….
I really want to understand why. What ignites the hatred?
A small town in Colorado has a witch hunt for some 70-90 year old women because they want to live privately in their own homes and that is WRONG?
God…what is the matter with people???
Black person from San Angelo 08.08.08 at 11:19 pm
TBM: Yes sir!!
Jeny: “So the Negro race has continued, and today is the day of the Negro as far as the world is concerned.”[6]
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, or rude and filthy, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits; wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is usually bestowed upon mankind.”[7]
“So I give you this lesson on the black race that you can understand its full effects as far as we are able to comprehend. And that we must beware – if we are for the prophet, the priesthood – we will come out of the world and leave off their dress, their music, their styles, their fashions; the way they think, what they do, because you can trace back and see a connection with immoral, filthy people.”[8]
“So when you enjoy the beats, the rock music – maybe even toned down with an orchestra – you are enjoying the spirit of the black race. And that’s what I emphasize to the students. And it is to rock the soul and lead the person to immorality, corruption – to forget their prayers, to forget their God. And thus the world has partaken of the spirit of the Negro race, accepting their ways.”
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/WarrenJeffs.htm
well 08.08.08 at 11:43 pm
A lot of that quote is actually Jeffs quoting Brigham Young.
Marie 08.09.08 at 12:46 am
Wow a lot of opinions, some very hateful and bigoted?
Indians value all life forms, even the bug that lives under a rock. Yuck I don’t want to live under a rock. Do I have the right to take his rock to build my home, squishing him/her and removing their species, so my better one can take over? NO!
I’m what some people call a mutt? French, Dutch, German, Jew, African and I hold a roll card in the Chumash Nation. Because I appear white American on the outside, I have received very little racist comments in my life personally. But I have seen racism at its worst.
My adopted Chumash grandmother was sterilized to prevent further breeding. My Step grandfather had his last name changed during World War II, to help prevent his death if captured as a Jew. In Mississippi most Boudreaux’s (my maiden name) are black in color.
My skin is cream white, my hair blonde, and my eyes hazel. I can claim religious, and heritage persecution, in any direction I want. Slaves were freed long before my Indian heritage people were given rights. Germans killed many of my Jewish ancestors?
We are a mixed culture, because I have so many in my blood I can play any side I want? If I check Black, or Native American, on a job application, both I am entitled to. I can get a job quicker? As the government has quotas employers must abide by, based on race. If I check no race, religion or preference the interviewer must guess my status based on my name or color during an interview?
This is not fair but a way of life, so until the laws are equal (this is not going to happen in my lifetime) WE HAVE TO WORK THROUGH bigotry.
Thank you
Marie
Jeny 08.09.08 at 1:22 am
“39 well { 08.08.08 at 11:43 pm } A lot of that quote is actually Jeffs quoting Brigham Young.”
Thanks for pointing this out. The way BP from San Angelo posted that quote, it appears to be *my* words, rather than someone elses.
I have *never*, ever said anything even close to something like that and never will.
I would appreciate it if BP from San Angelo would be more careful when posting such quotes, so that the reader is certain who he/she is quoting and not left to assume the name beside the quote is the author.
Thank you.
PS. I can cut and paste some Rev. Wrights ugly anti-white hatred here too. He is the “spirituual mentor” of 20 years to a man who wants to be our next president. I don’t know of any FLDS that wants to take the most powerful job in the world and impose his anti-black mindset on everyone else. Do you?
Thomas Forguson 08.09.08 at 1:57 am
Black San Angelo- You have failed to point out that Jeffs is quoting someone else. This involves speech and not actions. You have chosen to ignore the fact that the FLDS have never planted crosses in anybody or drug anyone behind a pick-up. You are indifferent to the suffering inflicted on innocent women and children. These innocent children were taken out of their homes and thrown into the Fort Concho conccetrion camp where most of them became sick. Your indifference to their plight makes you a bigot. There is nothing that Jeffs said or did justifies what was done to them.These poor children will be scarred for the rest of their lives by what happened. Throughout the civil rights a large number of bigots called themselves law-abiding which as I recall were the worse kind of bigots.
Chai Tea 08.09.08 at 5:00 am
Ok…so I guess I’m invisible.
Let the hatred continue.
Vic 08.09.08 at 9:04 am
6 R { 08.07.08 at 2:03 pm } But when it’s Jeffs showing how to kiss a 12 year old. Then that’s when folks set up and took notice.
Funny… I could have sworn that photo wasn’t publicized until over a month after the raid.
Jeffs was armed and dangerous when it came to children.
ROFL! Warren Jeffs was not “armed and dangerous”. The FLDS in general aren’t all that heavily armed; though they did have some guns.
I think you might have missed the point there. I agree the probably did have some guns lol
This is my rifle this is my gun. One is for hunting the other for fun
It’s just my opinion but I think Warren is one huge nutcase
R 08.09.08 at 10:26 am
Oops. I made the mistake of talking to Vic seriously again.
Black person from San Angelo 08.09.08 at 11:08 am
Jeny: I cited the quote.
anyway… you say, “I have *never*, ever said anything even close to something like that and never will.”
why? because it is racist and inflammatory? because it calls out a whole group of people as less than human? exactly.
Thomas: you are fixated on crosses and dragging people. most racists don’t do this. And I am not indifferent to the suffering of the innocent * the children *. I believe they suffered a great deal and continue to suffer. However, they need to look at Uncle Warren, their father, their mother/caretaker and her sister wives in order to place ultimate blame for the suffering. There are things about the way this comunity lives that I think are beautiful and ideal. However. There is also great evil.
TxBluesMan 08.09.08 at 12:41 pm
Jeny made a comment:
Ah…..we finally see TBM’s anti-FLDS agenda for what it was about all along. Race.
I extrapolate from his “deal” that TBM is black and his feelings are hurt that blacks have been excluded from the FLDS.
which was later followed by:
I have *never*, ever said anything even close to something like that and never will.
and in the same post:
PS. I can cut and paste some Rev. Wrights ugly anti-white hatred here too. He is the “spirituual mentor” of 20 years to a man who wants to be our next president. I don’t know of any FLDS that wants to take the most powerful job in the world and impose his anti-black mindset on everyone else. Do you?
Gee, it does seem like you make conclusions about race and immediately ascribe negative motivations to it.
Why is that?
well 08.09.08 at 2:06 pm
HELLO BP,
“Uncle Warren, Father, Mother, caretakers”, have been proven by the state of Texas and $30+ MILLION dollars, that they never abused their children in any way. How can you try to place the blame on them???? That is ridiculous. You don’t like the way they live, then maybe we ought to take the children away from every man who has ever “slept out”. At least these people take care of their own. You may not like their religion, but that is no reason to take away their most precious jewels, their children. Remember their were no brusies, no bodies, no systematic sexual abuse, all the other garbage the main stream media threw out their to get Jeffs on the top 10 and make the FBI, once again a laughing stock. All the abuse has come from CPS and the state of Texas.
rikitikitavi1 08.09.08 at 2:15 pm
I see BP has ignored my suggestion, so I will put him/her in the whiner category. Guess it’s easier to sit back & whine (& be a bigot while whining about the FLDS being bigots) than it would be to ask for a meeting to discuss these beliefs like adults. Doing the mature thing is sooo hard sometimes.
Because in my experience, the FLDS are open to discussing their beliefs when asked politely to explain them, even if your views are vastly different than theirs.
Black person from San Angelo 08.09.08 at 3:29 pm
no rikitik, I am just ignoring you. my original post says, “My experience with the FLDS has not been as positive as yours have been apparently.” this suggests that I have experience with the subject matter at hand.
Thomas Forguson 08.09.08 at 4:05 pm
Black San Angelo you remain fixated on words and not actions. People remain reponsible for their actions and in no way blame should blames others for wht they do. I remined fixated on cross burnings because I believe it is what you do or dont do that matters. Unless bigots take action against you or fail to take action. Irregardless of what Uncle Warren said or did, it does not excuse the terrible way these owomen and children were treated. You cannot say you sympathize with the victims and then fail to condemn those who actually carried out the crimes. You suggested that you had first hand experience with the experience. The isolated manner in which the FLDS have traditonally lived have not brought them into contact with many Black people. Were you one of the storm troopers who raided the XYZ Ranch on April 3rd?
TxBluesMan 08.09.08 at 4:38 pm
Thomas,
You said People remain reponsible for their actions.
Does that mean that the FLDS are responsible for their actions, and consequently for any offenses that those actions might have committed?
For example, if it is illegal to act by having more than one spouse, are they accountable for that? How about sexual relations with a minor, when the father can be proven by DNA? Are they responsible for their actions then?
Chai Tea 08.09.08 at 5:46 pm
Actually, TBM, it means that INDIVIDUAL FLDS members are responsible for THEIR actions…not the religion NOR the leader are responsible for INDIVIDUAL choices.
When CPS and the STATE of TEXAS finally figure out that elemental truth, justice and observation of constitutional rights might actually return…provided Barbie is off the bench.
Dan 08.09.08 at 5:49 pm
Just a thought about the FLDS’ race conscious views. Either its true or its false. If its true how is getting mad about it going to help? if it’s false then let me here state. There is’nt one documented case of any FLDS members ever denying civil rights to a black person, or abusing or even yelling harsh words or racial epithets toward blacks. Let’s go back to the Mormons in Missouri. Slavery was still legal, Missouri was a slave state Mormons were not slave holders. This was a factor in the anti Mormon sentiment that drove them from the state, with an extermination order from the guv of that state. If the FLDS are racist it is simply a private religious belief and harms no one, unless you believe them. As far as I’ve seen they treat all people with respect and dignity. “So if their beliefs are false lets take their children away because you all know that we can’t allow parents to teach their children false religious doctrine”. {tounge in cheek}. Some people are actually suggesting we punish thoughts! WOW you people should wake up.
Black person from San Angelo 08.09.08 at 5:59 pm
Thomas “Were you one of the storm troopers who raided the XYZ Ranch on April 3rd?”
No. I am a member of the community of San Angelo, which does happen to have black people in it, and the FLDS is still in the community shopping and using services and such. Black folks in San Angelo are more than just CPS workers- they are law enforcement, attorneys, volunteers, doctors, teachers etc.
Kleiglights 08.09.08 at 6:40 pm
When the people who whine that the FLDS somehow deserved the abuse they received — which was, lest we forget, in violation of due process, therefore a violation of law — finally decide to argue the law should be applied evenly across the board, then some kind of truth will be served. And some kind of maturity and reponsibility will be shown.
For Black Person from San Angelo to claim, as he or she does, that the FLDS somehow “deserved” the horrible treatment they got from the State of Texas because they have violated laws is utter hypocrisy. Those laws are on the books to protect family relationships. So let’s protect them, not tear them apart.
Where is their concern about Hugh Hefner and his promotion of immorality, infidelity, adultery — and de facto sex slavery? How is there any sense or honesty in moaning about Warren Jeffs *supposedly* having kissed a twelve year old (probably a shopped photo) while the porn industry promotes graphic pedophilia — not just kisses? What kind of of bigotry is revealed in railing against the FLDS about teaching white superiority while failing to object to Rev. Wright teaching black superiority? Why are the FLDS a target, for supposed bias against blacks, while two local chapters of the KKK in San Angelo/El Dorado continue to meet and promote hatred (and violence) against all who are not white and Protestant?
Please stand back and see this horrible injustice for what it is, and move on to trying to heal, not look for mere warts to excuse Texas’ brutality against the FLDS. There are plenty of cancerous growths, not just warts, on some of these other segments of society. The FLDS are (gasp) odd, I’ll grant, but they are harmless. Hooray for oddity. Instead of looking at the mote in their eye, look at the beam in our own. Or in Hefner’s, Jeremiah Wright’s, Muslims who murder their daughters in the name of “honor”, or the KKK’s, or the local First Baptist Church with its ever-ready buses.
rikitikitavi1 08.09.08 at 7:27 pm
BP, I have much first-hand experience with the FLDS too & there are several areas where we have agreed to disagree. Since you would rather whine about the FLDS being bigoted against you (based solely on the BS statements from anti-FLDSers out to make a buck) & use that to justify the storm-trooper treatment they received (much like blacks received before, during & after the Civil Rights movement) leads me to the presumption that you would rather spout off bigoted statements & whine about how they’ve allegedly treated you than to something proactive about it.
anon 08.09.08 at 7:56 pm
I am FLDS and some of the nicest doctors I have met and been under their care have a skin color that is different than mine. I definitely respect their intelligence and I am always very grateful for their experiance, patience and help. I don’t know what kind of experience Blackperson has had or what has caused his/her negative feeling towards the FLDS, and I am truly sorry that an offense was committed.
And for TBM, I am sorry that he doesn’t know about Uncle Roy, our Prophet and a man of peace, who’s mother had Native American ancestors and the same blood that runs through the veins of many of the FLDS today. One of the great men of God who taught us the real value of each individual person on this earth.
I have learned in my short sojurn in life that every person is important…even more important than me. And that every person is different and I couldn’t be happier with that. What a dull world this would be without individuality, eh?
One other thing I have learned is that it is my feelings I have to control. If I (or Blackperson) know that what I am doing is right, good, honest, kind, trustworthy, patient, forgiving, loving, etc. What does it matter what others say or do, right?
Right, until those sayin’s and doin’s turn into negative and harsh actions that cause harm, grief and terror to innocent people. Then I start to be really concerned. And being FLDS, right now I am really concerned about the actions of those in Texas which are hurting the ones I love. Does this mean I condone or support or would hide abuse? Absolutely not.
I’m sure both of you could fire back a whole lot of whatever, but I wanted to say…just like you say the world is full of good people, so I (and others) say the FLDS is made up of many good people. And I hope you realize that each person lives their “personal” interpretation of the teachings we receive. Just as you live and obey laws how “you” interpret them.
karateka 08.09.08 at 11:26 pm
First of all, I want to say that anyone that says they don’t break the law is a flat out liar. You literally break the law by singing “Happy Birthday” without paying royalties. There are all kinds of other laws that people break all the time, so it is extremely hypocritical to label other people as “lawbreakers” when literally everyone breaks the law on at least an annual basis, if not daily basis.
Second, why are Blacks in San Angelo complaining about the FLDS while not talking about the KKK located in the city? It seems to me that it is highly likely the poster is neither black, nor from San Angelo.
coco 08.10.08 at 12:33 am
Chai,
I think you answered your own question:
“Let’s face it - we in the mainstream are not doing such a bang up job at life that we should be forcing it upon anyone. ”
We tend to be much quicker to look for a scapegoat, to point fingers than to reflect on our own behavior and make changes. Change is, after all, uncomfortable and rarely easy.
As Kleiglights, and others, pointed out–how bizarre is it that we are going after this small sect for “sexual issues” while ignoring the graphic–life destroying–pornography that so many around the world casually dip into or heavily traffic in. It’s okay because. . .?? Is there an elephant in the room?
Coco
coco 08.10.08 at 12:37 am
TxBlues:
Okay, morbid curiosity: “Y’all will get the FLDS to admit blacks into all levels of their priesthood and to marry into their families…”
Did some of them want to join the FLDS? (No disrespect intended–just doesn’t seem like the in group of the hour.)
Coco
Chai Tea 08.10.08 at 3:12 pm
Thank you, Coco. I’m glad at least one person read my post.
I wish the government would stop promoting racism. Everytime they do the census they break the data down by races… I prefer the term ethnicities.
Many newer gov’t forms have the ‘race’ broken down into Hispanic and Not Hispanic. Why? What’s up with that?
Why can’t we be people without pointing out skin tones? Why do we based employment on meeting quotas of skin tone colors instead of the color or eyes or hair?
Haven’t we learned anything from the past? Let’s move beyond categorizing and ASSUMING things about people and let’s learn to live ABOVE our differences!
The FLDS people (from what I’ve read) are willing to adjust their marriage practices to comply to the new state laws of Texas. But that doesn’t seem to be enough for people.
This whole thing just makes me sad - so much hate toward a group of people that just want to live in peace and solitude and to protect their children and themselves from the evils they perceive in the world. Sometimes I wish I could join them…don’t we all long for a simpler, more peaceful existence?
TxBluesMan 08.10.08 at 9:48 pm
Chai,
I’m all for them obeying the law, and I applaud them for it - if they really mean it. They haven’t exactly got a reputation for truthfulness, so I have my doubts.
That agreement to follow the law on underage marriage did not, however, include a commitment to obey the laws on bigamy, which is still a felony offense.
In any event, those that have already committed crimes must answer for them.
Jeny 08.16.08 at 1:46 pm
TBM: “In any event, those that have already committed crimes must answer for them.”
Like Tawana Brawley did?
Like Crystal Gale Mangum did?
Like Rozita Swinton did in this case?
Exactly. Unequal protection under the law as far as I can see.